Does anything rule Bury out?

[John G]

Hi Sam. Hope you're well

Bury wasn't doing anything much except marrying a prostitute, catching VD, smacking his wife about and spending her money and his time getting drunk. A rollercoaster of self destruction.

Sounds like a perfect profile of a serial killer!

[Harry D]

What was he doing until August 1888? Thinking things through?

Why does any serial killer begin killing when they do, Sam? I don't understand your question. Bury came to London and left within the timescale that these spates of assaults/murders occurred in Whitechapel. That's a fact.

Murder is a rare crime in the UK, yes? Post-mortem mutilation murders are even more extraordinary. And somehow William Bury, a man who lived within a few miles of the killer's stomping ground, had the same signature/paraphilia as the Ripper, and left London around the time the murders ostensibly ended. Either William Bury was a copycat, or the man who killed Alice McKenzie was. I struggle to accept both murders as non-canonical.

[Sam Flynn]

Why does any serial killer begin killing when they do, Sam? I don't understand your question. Bury came to London and left within the timescale that these spates of assaults/murders occurred in Whitechapel. That's a fact.

Knowing that he arrived in London in 1887 and left in spring 1889, I'd be more impressed if we'd seen at least one Ripper-like murder in 1887, or during the first half of 1888 at least. I'd be even more impressed if we'd another Whitechapel mutilation murder after Mary Kelly before Bury's departure, but we don't.

Murder is a rare crime in the UK, yes?

Murders of strangers on the streets are rare; domestic murders, however, are sadly more common. Ellen Bury's murder belonged in the latter category, whether WHB was the Ripper or not.

Post-mortem mutilation murders are even more extraordinary. And somehow William Bury, a man who lived within a few miles of the killer's stomping ground, had the same signature/paraphilia as the Ripper

He throttled Ellen with a rope, and inflicted a few modest (by JTR standards) cuts to her belly. The cuts seem to me less indicative of a paraphilia than of an afterthought.

[Abby Normal]

Actually Vasiliev is the only suspect who killed street prostitutes with a knife prior to these murders.

I used to use Vaseline when I was younger in my hair to look like Fonzi. I had no idea an inanimate object could actually kill someone?!?

[Abby Normal]

Does that discount him Sam

Of course not! It elevates him!

[Abby Normal]

Look at their last days. Things that seem unusual were going on hours before they were killed.

Alice McKenzie had not been going to work, according to her common law husband. She had been out alone late the night before. Then the day of her death, she took a blind boy somewhere and he heard her ask a strange man to buy her a drink. Had she gone to meet him? Was that man her killer? Was he JtR? She led the blind boy home, her friends saw her going somewhere hurriedly . . .

She had something going on.

Eddowes supposedly had no money but got gloriously drunk the evening of her death. How? She left John, supposedly going to her daughter's. What was she really doing?

Mary Kelly was seen dressed up, even wearing a bonnet, going out. We know she had serial live-in lovers. Did she think she had someone else lined up? Is that why she was undressed and probably asleep in her bed? Her new man was there?

Liz Stride took particular care with her appearance before going out. There is some suggestion she had plans, and she had not made plans to go back to her boarding house that night.

Even poor Polly had her "jolly bonnet." The only one of the C-5 who seemed hopeless was Annie Chapman, but she had some recently acquired rings.

So, were they being "played" with as a cat plays with a mouse? Or were they ambushed by an opportunistic JtR?

curious

Thank you for the lengthy explanation!

I still don't understand

[curious]

Thank you for the lengthy explanation!

I still don't understand

That's ok. It's difficult to explain without sounding crazy since the murders are mostly considered opportunistic -- the women were out and alone when the killer was looking for prey.

However, what if that's not the way it happened?

There are so many coincidences within this set of murders that who can tell what is coincidence and what is not?

curious

[John Wheat]

Sounds like a perfect profile of a serial killer!

That's because it is.

[johns]

Knowing that he arrived in London in 1887 and left in spring 1889, I'd be more impressed if we'd seen at least one Ripper-like murder in 1887, or during the first half of 1888 at least. I'd be even more impressed if we'd another Whitechapel mutilation murder after Mary Kelly before Bury's departure, but we don't.

Hi Sam.

There are of course attacks on Millwood and Wilson in February and March 1888 and the murder of Mylett in December 1888. They may seem unimportant but were the first 2 drunken assaults by the Ripper which eventually led to Tabram's murder? Was the Mylett murder one he couldn't "finish" properly (like Stride maybe?)and he only had time to strangle her before being interrupted?

October 1887 - Bury arrives in London
February 1888 - Millwood stabbed in legs and lower torso
March - Wilson robbed and stabbed in neck
April - Bury marries Ellen
August - Ripper murders start
November - Kelly murdered
December - Mylett murdered
January 1889 - Bury and Ellen move to Dundee

None of those above dates or occurences prove anything but what they do is 2 things in my mind

1) They "fit" and make sense. Maybe not to other people but the above events and dates make a believable timeline.
2) They certainly don't rule Bury out

Cheers
John

[Sam Flynn]

There are of course attacks on Millwood and Wilson in February and March 1888 and the murder of Mylett in December 1888.

October 1887 - Bury arrives in London
February 1888 - Millwood stabbed in legs and lower torso
March - Wilson robbed and stabbed in neck
April - Bury marries Ellen
August - Ripper murders start
November - Kelly murdered
December - Mylett murdered
January 1889 - Bury and Ellen move to Dundee

Thanks, John. The problem I have is that the Millwood/Wilson incidents and the Mylett murder don't strike me as remotely Ripperish. Mind you, I'd personally rule out Stride as a Ripper victiim, so I might be very fussy.

Interesting to see the timeline laid out like that, though.

[curious]

Hi Sam.

There are of course attacks on Millwood and Wilson in February and March 1888 and the murder of Mylett in December 1888. They may seem unimportant but were the first 2 drunken assaults by the Ripper which eventually led to Tabram's murder? Was the Mylett murder one he couldn't "finish" properly (like Stride maybe?)and he only had time to strangle her before being interrupted?

October 1887 - Bury arrives in London
February 1888 - Millwood stabbed in legs and lower torso
March - Wilson robbed and stabbed in neck
April - Bury marries Ellen
August - Ripper murders start
November - Kelly murdered
December - Mylett murdered
January 1889 - Bury and Ellen move to Dundee

None of those above dates or occurences prove anything but what they do is 2 things in my mind

1) They "fit" and make sense. Maybe not to other people but the above events and dates make a believable timeline.
2) They certainly don't rule Bury out

Cheers
John

John,
Do you think Bury contemplating marriage, then getting married might have been the stressor that triggered the murders?
curious

[johns]

John,
Do you think Bury contemplating marriage, then getting married might have been the stressor that triggered the murders?
curious

I think it was a combination of various factors really. Bury was a drunken yob. He married a prostitute who had some money, which would have been his prime motivator. He caught VD (from either Ellen or someone else). I think the Tabram murder (I include it as a JtR one) was an on the spur of the moment, rather than a pre-meditated one. After that there was no way back for him. More and more booze once he persuaded Ellen to cash in some inheritance. More violence in the murders themselves.

After they moved to Dundee, I think he killed Ellen in an unplanned manner too. He stopped himself before he went too far, then invented the most ridiculous story ever for the police. He couldn't run away from Ellen's murder so easily.

That's how it all sits with me anyway.

Regards
John

[John Wheat]

I think it was a combination of various factors really. Bury was a drunken yob. He married a prostitute who had some money, which would have been his prime motivator. He caught VD (from either Ellen or someone else). I think the Tabram murder (I include it as a JtR one) was an on the spur of the moment, rather than a pre-meditated one. After that there was no way back for him. More and more booze once he persuaded Ellen to cash in some inheritance. More violence in the murders themselves.

After they moved to Dundee, I think he killed Ellen in an unplanned manner too. He stopped himself before he went too far, then invented the most ridiculous story ever for the police. He couldn't run away from Ellen's murder so easily.

That's how it all sits with me anyway.

Regards
John

Hi Johns

I think you've pretty much summed very succinctly up why Bury was the Ripper.

Cheers John

[Sam Flynn]

I think you've pretty much summed very succinctly up why Bury was the Ripper.

johns presented a series of conjectures - by no means outlandish ones, but conjecture nonetheless. The best we can say is that, if these conjectures are correct, they would support the idea that Bury might have been the Ripper.

[curious]

johns presented a series of conjectures - by no means outlandish ones, but conjecture nonetheless. The best we can say is that, if these conjectures are correct, they would support the idea that Bury might have been the Ripper.

Bury is my favorite suspect, and his personality (as I see it) fits my current understanding of the crimes.

I continue to be open to new discoveries, new research and certainly will change my mind if presented with something or someone that makes better sense to me. I doubt I'll ever be entirely convinced of anyone's guilt as there are too many holes and missing information.

curious