Does anything rule Bury out?

[Abby Normal]

So prove to me irrefutably that the police "blew it" in 1889...even at this distance in time those Dundee cops seem pretty shrewd and thorough to me...

And while you're at it, explain why this erstwhile JtR, (who can escape in microseconds from Bucks Row or Mitre Square), didn't move from the spot for a week after the crime...a bloody week...no sort of paralysis, breakdown or disintegration can explain the contrast between this and prior JtR behaviour.

Bury's behaviour from the time of the murder onwards only begins to make sense to me if the crime he's commited is far more traumatic, far more mentally devastating, than anything he's done before...

Hi your paragraph 3 seems to be a possible explanation for your paragraph 2 so not quite sure what your saying. You seem to be contradicting yourself?

I agree with you, his lame attempt at whatever he was trying to do after Ellen's
murder is miles apart from his behavior in London, but just like many serial killers after him, perhaps he was just unraveling mentally. And like you said in paragraph 3, perhaps the murder of his wife (and after a major move perhaps thinking the police were on to him-hell, just moving in itself is stressfull), was the final straw.

Just off the top of my head i can think of a couple very efficiant serial killers who eventually unravelled,leading to their capture-kemper burnt out after killing his mom, and bundy lost it going berserk in a sorority house.
Very un kemper and bundy like.

[Wyatt Earp]

Not just daring, but handling immense pressure. Family member or not his actions after murdering his wife don't sound like work of somebody cold and calculating. (let alone an experienced murderer)

He hadn’t faced this kind of pressure before—this time he was trapped. He had no good escape options.

[Cogidubnus]

Just off the top of my head i can think of a couple very efficiant serial killers who eventually unravelled,leading to their capture-kemper burnt out after killing his mom, and bundy lost it going berserk in a sorority house.
Very un kemper and bundy like.

So weakened that after a week he couldn't function enough to simply get on a train or take a hike...yet he could function enough to go down the local copshop and put up, what according to Wyatt Earp, is a sound explanation of the crime which was almost good enough to pass muster in court...

He hadn’t faced this kind of pressure before—this time he was trapped. He had no good escape options.

He's killed someone and needs to disappear...he has a week in time and the resources available in the flat (thousands of times more resources than Jack)...so what does he do? Sit still for a week, then go down the copshop and tell such obvious bullshit it's tantamount to a confession...

As I've said before, pressure or not, all he has to do is take a couple of days out to recover, shave off the moustache and piss off...in that era he could turn up almost anywhere, claiming to be almost anybody, and be accepted as such...it's possibly the last time in the history of the western world (up until about 1900 I'd guess) he could've got away with that...but he didn't...

[Wyatt Earp]

So prove to me irrefutably that the police "blew it" in 1889...even at this distance in time those Dundee cops seem pretty shrewd and thorough to me...

I've presented a sound identification of Bury as the Ripper. It appears that the police looked at Bury for the Ripper murders but it also appears they turned away from him. We don't know the details of the police investigation into Bury and we don't know who was ultimately responsible for this turning away, but some person or persons blew it.

And while you're at it, explain why this erstwhile JtR, (who can escape in microseconds from Bucks Row or Mitre Square), didn't move from the spot for a week after the crime...a bloody week...no sort of paralysis, breakdown or disintegration can explain the contrast between this and prior JtR behaviour.

All of this has been explained to you before, Dave. This time he was trapped and had no good escape options. He feared flight from the crime scene would have led to a national manhunt for William Bury as Jack the Ripper. His life was on the line, and he was struggling to decide on a course of action. Got it?

[Abby Normal]

So weakened that after a week he couldn't function enough to simply get on a train or take a hike...yet he could function enough to go down the local copshop and put up, what according to Wyatt Earp, is a sound explanation of the crime which was almost good enough to pass muster in court...



He's killed someone and needs to disappear...he has a week in time and the resources available in the flat (thousands of times more resources than Jack)...so what does he do? Sit still for a week, then go down the copshop and tell such obvious bullshit it's tantamount to a confession...

As I've said before, pressure or not, all he has to do is take a couple of days out to recover, shave off the moustache and piss off...in that era he could turn up almost anywhere, claiming to be almost anybody, and be accepted as such...it's possibly the last time in the history of the western world (up until about 1900 I'd guess) he could've got away with that...but he didn't...

Hi cog
You didnt address any of my points.
You only repeated yourself.
You responded to me, using another posters ideas, that I don't necessarily agree with.
And you responded to more than one poster in the same post, which is bogus.

Since you don't seem to want to have a serious discussion, good bye.

[gnote]

Hi your paragraph 3 seems to be a possible explanation for your paragraph 2 so not quite sure what your saying. You seem to be contradicting yourself?

I agree with you, his lame attempt at whatever he was trying to do after Ellen's
murder is miles apart from his behavior in London, but just like many serial killers after him, perhaps he was just unraveling mentally. And like you said in paragraph 3, perhaps the murder of his wife (and after a major move perhaps thinking the police were on to him-hell, just moving in itself is stressfull), was the final straw.

Just off the top of my head i can think of a couple very efficiant serial killers who eventually unravelled,leading to their capture-kemper burnt out after killing his mom, and bundy lost it going berserk in a sorority house.
Very un kemper and bundy like.

Kemper's actions still look like a man in control. After murdering his mother he coldly lured over yet another victim. Then when interrogated he admitted to the other murders. If Bury did in fact break down mentally i suggest he would have done the same.

Bundy and the sorority house was escalation but against strangers and he fled the scene. When captured he likewise confessed.

Conversely Bury sounded terrified of being put up as the ripper. Sociopaths (which almost surely Jack was) typically don't exhibit those signs of fear.

I don't personally find Bury's behavior congruous with these two. That said he was a different person and we can't expect to find a perfect logical consistency with people's actions, let alone in comparing serial killers.

Even though my opinion is he was not Jack the Ripper i still find him one of the better suspects and I wouldn't be shocked to find out he was.

If we are to get back to the thread title alone, then the answer would be no, nothing rules Bury out. What rules out any suspect though? Short answer seems to be providing documentation the individual was in another country or in prison. Outside that there is no other way.

[Errata]

Hi your paragraph 3 seems to be a possible explanation for your paragraph 2 so not quite sure what your saying. You seem to be contradicting yourself?

I agree with you, his lame attempt at whatever he was trying to do after Ellen's
murder is miles apart from his behavior in London, but just like many serial killers after him, perhaps he was just unraveling mentally. And like you said in paragraph 3, perhaps the murder of his wife (and after a major move perhaps thinking the police were on to him-hell, just moving in itself is stressfull), was the final straw.

Just off the top of my head i can think of a couple very efficiant serial killers who eventually unravelled,leading to their capture-kemper burnt out after killing his mom, and bundy lost it going berserk in a sorority house.
Very un kemper and bundy like.

It's worth pointing out that while Kemper was apparently "done" killing, he called the cops from the border and turned himself in because he was afraid of getting shot during arrest if he didn't turn himself in. He was friends with some of the cops, he had involved himself in the investigations, and he knew they would be super pissed off to find out he was the killer. He considered it a preemptive strike.

Bundy devolved. And that is a specific thing. It's about killing in progressively shorter intervals with more brutality and less care. It happens when the killer either starts to feel trapped by impending capture or has realized that the killing will never solve the problem they are trying to solve. Bundy's devolution was mostly due to having been caught. There was also a small part that was because he wasn't satisfied by it anymore. It's why the Florida killings bore little resemblance to the previous ones, and it's why he targeted a 13 year old girl. Either way, devolving is about realizing that the end is nigh. Not necessarily in sight, but inevitable. A single sloppy kill with no attempt to escape either suspicion or punishment is not at all the same thing.

Ellen Bury's murder was not devolving. It was simply different. Yes there were similarities, but it was different. It was sloppy. There is no psychological reason for that, no pattern of behavior. It just happens. And it happens to serial killers. They get sloppy. What they don't do is completely lose the ability to make a run for it, but they get sloppy. They have bad days. They even turn themselves in. But this would be the first time I'm aware of where a serial killer turned himself in, not for murder, but for the dubious "crime" of mutilating and boxing up an already dead body. Didn't get caught over the body and gave that excuse, but turned himself in for it. That's new. No wonder the first cop passed him up the chain with "You gotta hear this!". He was probably crying from laughing so hard at the lameness of this excuse. This is the behavior that does not lend itself to successful serial killing. Even living on the run gave him a better chance than the "she was already dead at the time" excuse. But he didn't run. He didn't even try.

[John Wheat]

Kemper's actions still look like a man in control. After murdering his mother he coldly lured over yet another victim. Then when interrogated he admitted to the other murders. If Bury did in fact break down mentally i suggest he would have done the same...

Conversely Bury sounded terrified of being put up as the ripper. Sociopaths (which almost surely Jack was) typically don't exhibit those signs of fear...

To Gnote

There is some chance that Bury confessed to his hangman James Berry...

Why would Bury be afraid of being put up as the Ripper unless he was the Ripper?

Cheers John

[John Wheat]

This is the behavior that does not lend itself to successful serial killing. Even living on the run gave him a better chance than the "she was already dead at the time" excuse. But he didn't run. He didn't even try.

To Errata

I suggest Bury didn't run because he was afraid there would be a manhunt for him as the Ripper. I'm sure I've mentioned this before but maybe Bury tried to move the box himself and wasn't able to, a dead weight isn't light. Maybe Bury's plan was to dump the body along with the box and when this failed he was left with few options.

Cheers John

[GregBaron]

Still love to speculate...

Hi all,

Long time...

Bundy and the sorority house was escalation but against strangers and he fled the scene. When captured he likewise confessed.

Bundy always murdered strangers as do most serials....he never confessed until trying to save his own arse and then only to a select few...

What I'd like to see from you Buryites is a logistical analysis. I'm interested in his horse and buggy and where he may have parked it for the various crimes and what he had within it and how he drove off without notice or interrogation by anyone (assuming) etc.

This won't get us anywhere but could make for some very intriguing speculation....


Greg

[gnote]

To Gnote

There is some chance that Bury confessed to his hangman James Berry...

Why would Bury be afraid of being put up as the Ripper unless he was the Ripper?

Cheers John

It wouldn't be the only example of somebody who claimed to be the Ripper or confessed to crimes that are not corroborated. If you want to go that route i would say look around and "dare to compare".


"Why would Bury be afraid of being put up as the Ripper unless he was the Ripper?"

This is circular logic.

[Wyatt Earp]

Conversely Bury sounded terrified of being put up as the ripper. Sociopaths (which almost surely Jack was) typically don't exhibit those signs of fear.

No—this is not an accurate description of Bury. This is what Lt. Parr stated at Bury’s trial: “He told me…that he got frightened that he would be apprehended as Jack the Ripper.” That’s it. When Bury repeated his story to Lt. Lamb, he does not appear to have mentioned the Ripper at all. Macpherson writes, “Bury’s whole manner led Lamb to form the opinion that he was ‘quite sane and collected and sober’” (p.20). There’s no evidence that Bury was terrified, shaking like a leaf, etc. It sounds like he was behaving like a cool psychopath.

Parr’s statement is important as it explains why Bury didn’t make a run for it.

As I've said before, pressure or not, all he has to do is take a couple of days out to recover, shave off the moustache and piss off

Yeah, that’s all you have to do to elude a national manhunt—shave off your moustache. Good thinkin’ Lincoln.

What I'd like to see from you Buryites is a logistical analysis. I'm interested in his horse and buggy and where he may have parked it for the various crimes and what he had within it and how he drove off without notice or interrogation by anyone (assuming) etc.

Greg, what do you make of the possibility that Bury didn't go to his horse and cart following a murder—that he went to the place of a friend instead? Ellen stated to Marjory Smith that Bury was with friends when he was away from home at night.

[John Wheat]

It wouldn't be the only example of somebody who claimed to be the Ripper or confessed to crimes that are not corroborated. If you want to go that route i would say look around and "dare to compare".

To Gnote

Yes but how many confessors killed there former prostitute wife in a similar fashion to Jack?

Cheers John

[Abby Normal]

Kemper's actions still look like a man in control. After murdering his mother he coldly lured over yet another victim. Then when interrogated he admitted to the other murders. If Bury did in fact break down mentally i suggest he would have done the same.

Bundy and the sorority house was escalation but against strangers and he fled the scene. When captured he likewise confessed.

Conversely Bury sounded terrified of being put up as the ripper. Sociopaths (which almost surely Jack was) typically don't exhibit those signs of fear.

I don't personally find Bury's behavior congruous with these two. That said he was a different person and we can't expect to find a perfect logical consistency with people's actions, let alone in comparing serial killers.

Even though my opinion is he was not Jack the Ripper i still find him one of the better suspects and I wouldn't be shocked to find out he was.

If we are to get back to the thread title alone, then the answer would be no, nothing rules Bury out. What rules out any suspect though? Short answer seems to be providing documentation the individual was in another country or in prison. Outside that there is no other way.

Hi Gnote
good post. I don't necessarily agree (except for your paragraphs 4 and 6) but I see your points.

[Abby Normal]

It's worth pointing out that while Kemper was apparently "done" killing, he called the cops from the border and turned himself in because he was afraid of getting shot during arrest if he didn't turn himself in. He was friends with some of the cops, he had involved himself in the investigations, and he knew they would be super pissed off to find out he was the killer. He considered it a preemptive strike.

Bundy devolved. And that is a specific thing. It's about killing in progressively shorter intervals with more brutality and less care. It happens when the killer either starts to feel trapped by impending capture or has realized that the killing will never solve the problem they are trying to solve. Bundy's devolution was mostly due to having been caught. There was also a small part that was because he wasn't satisfied by it anymore. It's why the Florida killings bore little resemblance to the previous ones, and it's why he targeted a 13 year old girl. Either way, devolving is about realizing that the end is nigh. Not necessarily in sight, but inevitable. A single sloppy kill with no attempt to escape either suspicion or punishment is not at all the same thing.

Ellen Bury's murder was not devolving. It was simply different. Yes there were similarities, but it was different. It was sloppy. There is no psychological reason for that, no pattern of behavior. It just happens. And it happens to serial killers. They get sloppy. What they don't do is completely lose the ability to make a run for it, but they get sloppy. They have bad days. They even turn themselves in. But this would be the first time I'm aware of where a serial killer turned himself in, not for murder, but for the dubious "crime" of mutilating and boxing up an already dead body. Didn't get caught over the body and gave that excuse, but turned himself in for it. That's new. No wonder the first cop passed him up the chain with "You gotta hear this!". He was probably crying from laughing so hard at the lameness of this excuse. This is the behavior that does not lend itself to successful serial killing. Even living on the run gave him a better chance than the "she was already dead at the time" excuse. But he didn't run. He didn't even try.

Hi Errata

It's worth pointing out that while Kemper was apparently "done" killing, he called the cops from the border and turned himself in because he was afraid of getting shot during arrest if he didn't turn himself in.

In kempers own words he said the main reason he turned himself in because he felt it was getting out of control and he was burned out.

He considered it a preemptive strike.

How do you know that bury didn't consider this a "pre-emptive strike"? Sure sounds like one to me, however lame it was.

It's about killing in progressively shorter intervals with more brutality and less care. It happens when the killer either starts to feel trapped by impending capture or has realized that the killing will never solve the problem they are trying to solve

Sounds like Bury to me!

A single sloppy kill with no attempt to escape either suspicion or punishment is not at all the same thing.

But Bury did try to attempt to escape suspicion and punishment! He lied to the police and said she killed herself.

But this would be the first time I'm aware of where a serial killer turned himself in, not for murder, but for the dubious "crime" of mutilating and boxing up an already dead body.

Well, that's pretty specific.

Didn't get caught over the body and gave that excuse, but turned himself in for it.

Bury did not turn himself in!!!!

Sorry, but you cant rule bury out (the whole topic of this thread)on the facts surrounding his murder of his wife just because its different. Yes, it appears un ripper like. yes their are differences.
Different circumstances, different mental state etc. Ive said it before-serial killers (and their victims for that matter, humans for that matter) are not robots.


The mere fact that Bury is even a suspect at all is because he MURDERED his wife, in similar enough fashion, and police at that time believed he should be checked out-like any good cop would do.

So the main reason that you and others are arguing what rules bury out is actually what ruled him in.