Does anything rule Bury out?

[Abby Normal]

This is my line of thinking as well. It's not just MO/signature. I can understand why a serial killer of strangers if choosing to murder their spouse would utilize a different method.

Most married serial killers that i'm aware of try keep up the appearance of a family man. This also helps hide their more sinister inclinations (I'm not saying they get married solely for this purpose) and they basically lead a double life. I don't know of any that have killed their spouse. That alone doesn't eliminate Bury of course, but i believe it counts against him.

agree

[Abby Normal]

There is evidence (beginning with the murderer's own statement) that the Ellen Bury murder was not planned. If it was not planned, then it would not be correct to say that Bury targeted his spouse.

If during the course of an argument Ellen Bury threatened to go to the police, Bury might have felt he had no choice but to kill her then and there. This scenario cannot be ruled out.

agree. but as gnote and I discussed, its very very rare(if ever) for these type of serial killers to murder their wives.

[Abby Normal]

No, this is an incorrect assessment. It does not align with what we know about the behavior of serial killers:

1. MO can change from crime scene to crime scene. The absence of a cut throat does not rule Bury out.

2. Signature behaviors like mutilation can be deescalated in connection with the specific circumstances of a murder, and Bury had a strong situational incentive here to do exactly that.

totally agree with this

[John Wheat]

No, this is an incorrect assessment. It does not align with what we know about the behavior of serial killers:

1. MO can change from crime scene to crime scene. The absence of a cut throat does not rule Bury out.

2. Signature behaviors like mutilation can be deescalated in connection with the specific circumstances of a murder, and Bury had a strong situational incentive here to do exactly that.

I agree with what your saying Wyatt. If Bury had cut Ellen's throat and then mutilated her like the C5 he might as well have tied the noose around his own neck.

Cheers John

[gnote]

I agree with what your saying Wyatt. If Bury had cut Ellen's throat and then mutilated her like the C5 he might as well have tied the noose around his own neck.

Cheers John

I'm not sure i follow. He was hanged for the murder of his wife. What difference would it have had been identical to a Ripper murder? Would they have decided they need to super duper hang him?

[John Wheat]

Hi gnote

Bury could have got off his wife's murder he tried to anyway. He claimed to the police that Ellen had commited suicide. However had Bury cut Ellen's throat and mutilated her like for example Mary Jane Kelly he would surely been tried for the C5 and his wife's murder with only a miniscule chance of getting off.

Cheers John

[Errata]

Hi errata
Then how do you explain the total difference in MO/sig in the family member killings that bookended kempers serial killing?

Completely different motivation. Serial killers murder for pleasure, a sense of satisfaction or completion. For release. Sometimes it's sexual. Kemper was so damaged that he could not even approach a woman to ask her out. He killed women to have interactions with them. Yes, sexual, but also simply to be in their presence for longer than a minute or two. His fantasy was sexual. It was about forming relationships.

His mother is the one who destroyed is ability to have relationships. That murder was pure revenge. With his grandmother, also a raging bitch, he lost his temper, but by then he had already been molded into the perfect psycopath. His statement to the police as to why he did it was crap. He killed her because she was hurting him, and he made it stop. The only suspicious murder was that of his grandfather. It is possible that he genuinely feared his grandfather's reaction, but given his grandfather's extremely submissive nature, he may have seen the murder as a kindness. He has made some statements about how his grandfather could not live without his grandfather. He may have shot his grandfather to spare him the loss of his wife.

A serial killer might kill someone out of perceived necessity. And they do. All the time. Think about the killers who torture and mutilate women. There have been any number of instances where a serial killer has put down a child in order to do what they want to the mother. They do not do to the children what they do to the mother because that's not their thing. That's not who they are. They'll kill a kid, cut throat, strangulation, bullet to the head, but they don't act out their fantasy on the wrong kind of victim. BTK did treat the children the way he treated adults. His fantasy didn't depend on adults, or females, they just had to capable of feeling pain. Jack needed adult women.

If Jack was like Kemper, then the murder of a family member only happens either by accident, or through blame. If it was by accident, say a fight, there would be no fantasy involved, and no reason to stage it to look like a Ripper crime. If it was by accident then likely he hit her too hard. Nobody accidentally cuts someone's throat. If it was because of blame, like it was with Kemper, then the murder should be spectacular. Kemper did terrible things to corpses. That is his thing. But what he did to his mother would make Freud dance a jig. It was gruesome, it was extreme, it was overkill because he blamed her. He blamed her for ruining his life, and in fact she did. I hate to say this, but she deserved what she got. If you make a serial killer, you should die by his hand. But that murder was so frenzied that he didn't even have it out of his system after he ran out of things to do to her. He called in her best friend. Huge messy symbolic murder. Ellen Bury's murder was relatively tame. Suggestive, but tame. If Bury were Jack, and he was killing his wife for a reason that had nothing to do with his fantasy, the murder would not resemble the C5. If it was because of his fantasy, a close emotional connection to the victim always spells out a spectacular version of past fantasies. It should have been the Broadway version of the Ripper murders. Not some sad resemblance. Bury killing his wife doesn't mean he isn't the Ripper. Bury killing his wife the way he did means he isn't the Ripper.

And Kemper is pretty much a bad example for anything because he is brilliant, articulate, and astonishingly self aware. And has been throughout his life and killing career. He is extremely helpful to researchers, but I still wouldn't be alone in a room with him. We know more about him than any other serial killer, and it is tempting to ascribe his traits to all serial killers. But the Grand Canyon sized gap in the IQs of other killers and Kemper means we can't. Kemper and Rifkin stand alone. They are capable of doing things their counterparts cannot do, their executive functions (barring empathy) are well honed, their reasoning is impeccable, and both have the power to deny themselves when necessary. They arent the average serial killers. I actually feel bad for Kemper. Still wouldn't want to have a coffee with him, but Kemper and Gein are how we know that serial killers can be made, not bred. It's sad.

[Errata]

No, this is an incorrect assessment. It does not align with what we know about the behavior of serial killers:

1. MO can change from crime scene to crime scene. The absence of a cut throat does not rule Bury out.

2. Signature behaviors like mutilation can be deescalated in connection with the specific circumstances of a murder, and Bury had a strong situational incentive here to do exactly that.

Serial killers try to match a fantasy in their head. With some killers, the fantasy is a little fuzzy. It took people awhile to figure out what it was that Son of Sam wanted, because as far as people knew no one had killed for publicity before. People still aren't entirely sure what Zodiac was after. But some are crystal clear. Everyone knows what Bundy wanted. Everyone knows the broad strokes of what Gein needed. Everyone knows Jack the Ripper's fantasy as well. Every time he killed he was trying to live the dream. And to live the dream, you match the dream or exceed the dream. Serial killers escalate somehow. Maybe not in the amount of blood shed, maybe not in cuts or organs or fame. But somehow. It's like heroin. You need more and more just to feel the high.

The only argument for Ellen Bury's murder being an escalation is the notion that he went from women he did not know to someone very close to him. But we don't know that he didn't know his victims, and even if he didn't he skipped a major step. If he was escalation by killing closer to home, you'd expect an employee, or a friends wife. Not his own. He didn't kill her as any part of his fetish/fantasy. He killed her because she needed killing for whatever reason. And there is no reason at all for him to use parts of fantasy when killing his wife for utilitarian reasons. No reason to cut her throat, no reason to stab her in the abdomen. That's his fantasy. That is precious to him. He doesn't ruin it by half-assing it with his wife.

If he was trying to de-escalate so that he would not be found out as the Ripper, he wouldn't have used a knife at all. A candlestick to the head works admirable, and has no ties to 5 dead women. If it isn't the fantasy, then he can be rational and will be rational. If it is the fantasy, the escalation and the choice of a well known victim triggers a spectacular example of his fantasy. He would want it to be perfect with his wife. He knows her, he nominally trusts her, and it is insanely dangerous for him. If he kills her out of necessity, he would leave no Ripper prints. If he kills her for the fantasy, he goes out with a bang.

The only way she gets a lame throat cut and a stab to the stomach is if Bury has no ties to the Ripper.

[Abby Normal]

Completely different motivation. Serial killers murder for pleasure, a sense of satisfaction or completion. For release. Sometimes it's sexual. Kemper was so damaged that he could not even approach a woman to ask her out. He killed women to have interactions with them. Yes, sexual, but also simply to be in their presence for longer than a minute or two. His fantasy was sexual. It was about forming relationships.

His mother is the one who destroyed is ability to have relationships. That murder was pure revenge. With his grandmother, also a raging bitch, he lost his temper, but by then he had already been molded into the perfect psycopath. His statement to the police as to why he did it was crap. He killed her because she was hurting him, and he made it stop. The only suspicious murder was that of his grandfather. It is possible that he genuinely feared his grandfather's reaction, but given his grandfather's extremely submissive nature, he may have seen the murder as a kindness. He has made some statements about how his grandfather could not live without his grandfather. He may have shot his grandfather to spare him the loss of his wife.

A serial killer might kill someone out of perceived necessity. And they do. All the time. Think about the killers who torture and mutilate women. There have been any number of instances where a serial killer has put down a child in order to do what they want to the mother. They do not do to the children what they do to the mother because that's not their thing. That's not who they are. They'll kill a kid, cut throat, strangulation, bullet to the head, but they don't act out their fantasy on the wrong kind of victim. BTK did treat the children the way he treated adults. His fantasy didn't depend on adults, or females, they just had to capable of feeling pain. Jack needed adult women.

If Jack was like Kemper, then the murder of a family member only happens either by accident, or through blame. If it was by accident, say a fight, there would be no fantasy involved, and no reason to stage it to look like a Ripper crime. If it was by accident then likely he hit her too hard. Nobody accidentally cuts someone's throat. If it was because of blame, like it was with Kemper, then the murder should be spectacular. Kemper did terrible things to corpses. That is his thing. But what he did to his mother would make Freud dance a jig. It was gruesome, it was extreme, it was overkill because he blamed her. He blamed her for ruining his life, and in fact she did. I hate to say this, but she deserved what she got. If you make a serial killer, you should die by his hand. But that murder was so frenzied that he didn't even have it out of his system after he ran out of things to do to her. He called in her best friend. Huge messy symbolic murder. Ellen Bury's murder was relatively tame. Suggestive, but tame. If Bury were Jack, and he was killing his wife for a reason that had nothing to do with his fantasy, the murder would not resemble the C5. If it was because of his fantasy, a close emotional connection to the victim always spells out a spectacular version of past fantasies. It should have been the Broadway version of the Ripper murders. Not some sad resemblance. Bury killing his wife doesn't mean he isn't the Ripper. Bury killing his wife the way he did means he isn't the Ripper.

And Kemper is pretty much a bad example for anything because he is brilliant, articulate, and astonishingly self aware. And has been throughout his life and killing career. He is extremely helpful to researchers, but I still wouldn't be alone in a room with him. We know more about him than any other serial killer, and it is tempting to ascribe his traits to all serial killers. But the Grand Canyon sized gap in the IQs of other killers and Kemper means we can't. Kemper and Rifkin stand alone. They are capable of doing things their counterparts cannot do, their executive functions (barring empathy) are well honed, their reasoning is impeccable, and both have the power to deny themselves when necessary. They arent the average serial killers. I actually feel bad for Kemper. Still wouldn't want to have a coffee with him, but Kemper and Gein are how we know that serial killers can be made, not bred. It's sad.

Hi errata
Thanks for the lengthy explanation, but I don't buy it. don't subscribe to the serial killers are robots theory.

Now if you want to argue that serial killers (not black widows)rarely kill their
spouses, so therefor its a check mark against Bury's candidacy, I would agree with that.

But to rule him out totally as you seem to be doing, because her wounds aren't ripper like enough-well I simply disagree.

And frankly some of your statements about Kemper are rather disturbing

[Wyatt Earp]

If it was by accident, say a fight, there would be no fantasy involved…

If Bury were Jack, and he was killing his wife for a reason that had nothing to do with his fantasy, the murder would not resemble the C5…

And there is no reason at all for him to use parts of fantasy when killing his wife for utilitarian reasons. No reason to cut her throat, no reason to stab her in the abdomen. That's his fantasy. That is precious to him. He doesn't ruin it by half-assing it with his wife...

If he kills her out of necessity, he would leave no Ripper prints...

Errata, all of this is ill-informed and completely wrong. The serial killer’s signature remains relatively stable—this is not my personal opinion, this is what the research demonstrates. Jack the Ripper’s murder of Ellen Bury should bear a close resemblance in signature to his Whitechapel murders. And that’s exactly what we find. There’s a table at the end of my article in Ripperologist where I compare the signature of Martha Tabram’s murderer to the signature of Ellen Bury’s murderer, and indeed they are virtually identical.

If he was trying to de-escalate so that he would not be found out as the Ripper, he wouldn't have used a knife at all. A candlestick to the head works admirable, and has no ties to 5 dead women.

At Bury’s trial, Lt. Parr testified that Bury told him he had been drinking on the night of Ellen’s death. We also have trial testimony that when Bury was living in Bow, he was liquored up a lot of the time. It’s not much of a speculation, then, to suggest that Bury was drunk when he murdered her.

No doubt when he sobered up in the morning and saw what a pickle he was in, he realized the grievous mistake he’d made by taking his knife to her at all. But that’s how it happened in the heat of the moment.

[John Wheat]

To Errata

The only way she gets a lame throat cut and a stab to the stomach is if Bury has no ties to the Ripper.

But Bury didn't cut Ellen's throat. He strangled her with rope. I think Bury was caught between a rock and a hard place having to kill Ellen possibly because she knew he was the Ripper but unlike the C5 he couldn't carry out major mutilations for fear of being discovered.

Cheers John

[John Wheat]

To Abbey Normal/Errata

But to rule him out totally as you seem to be doing, because her wounds aren't ripper like enough-well I simply disagree.

And frankly some of your statements about Kemper are rather disturbing

Bury shouldn't be ruled out just because Ellen's wounds weren't as brutal as the C5.

And Kemper is pretty much a bad example for anything because he is brilliant, articulate, and astonishingly self aware. And has been throughout his life and killing career. He is extremely helpful to researchers, but I still wouldn't be alone in a room with him. We know more about him than any other serial killer, and it is tempting to ascribe his traits to all serial killers. But the Grand Canyon sized gap in the IQs of other killers and Kemper means we can't. Kemper and Rifkin stand alone. They are capable of doing things their counterparts cannot do, their executive functions (barring empathy) are well honed, their reasoning is impeccable, and both have the power to deny themselves when necessary. They arent the average serial killers. I actually feel bad for Kemper. Still wouldn't want to have a coffee with him, but Kemper and Gein are how we know that serial killers can be made, not bred. It's sad.

Errata I too find some of your comments about Kemper rather disturbing. I wouldn't describe Kemper as brilliant. Admitedly he has a high I.Q. but this just proves he knew exactly what he was doing. Why would anyone feel sorry for Kemper he is after all a serial killer? Also why describe Kemper and Rifkin as standing alone? There have been other killers with Hi I.Q.'s for example Melvin Rees, Werner Boost and Lucian Staniak.

Cheers John

[John Wheat]

To Wyatt

Excellent post.

At Bury’s trial, Lt. Parr testified that Bury told him he had been drinking on the night of Ellen’s death. We also have trial testimony that when Bury was living in Bow, he was liquored up a lot of the time. It’s not much of a speculation, then, to suggest that Bury was drunk when he murdered her.

I suspect Jack had been drinking when the C5 and Tabram were murdered this goes a long way to explaining why there are differences in a number of the C5 murders and also in Tabram's murder.

Cheers John

[gnote]

To Wyatt

Excellent post.



I suspect Jack had been drinking when the C5 and Tabram were murdered this goes a long way to explaining why there are differences in a number of the C5 murders and also in Tabram's murder.

Cheers John

If Jack was liquored up during any of the murders (which i'm not dismissing) i would say it certainly adds to his "luck factor". If inebriation increased his boldness, it would also have diminished his chance of escape given the circumstances. (outside of MJK)

[Abby Normal]

To Abbey Normal/Errata



Bury shouldn't be ruled out just because Ellen's wounds weren't as brutal as the C5.



Errata I too find some of your comments about Kemper rather disturbing. I wouldn't describe Kemper as brilliant. Admitedly he has a high I.Q. but this just proves he knew exactly what he was doing. Why would anyone feel sorry for Kemper he is after all a serial killer? Also why describe Kemper and Rifkin as standing alone? There have been other killers with Hi I.Q.'s for example Melvin Rees, Werner Boost and Lucian Staniak.

Cheers John

Agree. These guys are losers. Period. Sure nurture has something to do about it, but so does morals,free will, overcoming the odds, taking responsibility for ones actions. The " but mommy was mean to me " apologists make me ill.

Yeah Kempers mom was so hated he had no choice to keep moving in with her and taking her handouts and accepting her help.


Some people just choose to be evil. **** em.