Signature Analysis and Bury's Murder of Ellen

[Mrsperfect]

Hi Sam

Copied and pasted from another thread:

The facts, as I understand them, are that two detectives were sent to Scotland to interview Bury before the death sentence was carried out. That makes me wonder why they would go to that expense, for a suspect deemed hardly worthy of mention, to many ripperologists.

Sure, many suspects were interviewed in London and at little cost, but a trip to Scotland would have to be justified. They must have wondered whether he could have been JtR. Bury's a fine suspect in my opinion and Beadle's book confirmed it. It doesn't hamper Beadle's credentials that he's a smart man (Member of Mensa) and a copper's son. I would recommend it.

Regards

Eileen

Ellen Bury stated that "Jack the Ripper was quiet"......did she think Bury was 'special'?

So Bury's not the only one that thought he was 'special'

[curious]

I would have filled the larger crate first, then the smaller one. That way I would not have any clothes in the larger crate when I left the house.

Eileen

Hello, Mrs. Perfect,

I'm not sure what your last sentence means -- whether you're saying that IF you were Bury and IF you were planning to kill Ellen or not.

But personally, when I'm packing, it's the carry-on that I pack first to be sure my necessities are handy and will be with me at all times. Of course, leaving room for the make-up bag in top, then, if there's room, I add extra almost necessary stuff until the small bag is full.

The larger bag then gets everything else.

Plus, if you're traveling, it's great to have an almost empty bag so that you have room for things that you buy along the way and don't have to jettison stuff, or pay shipping.

curious

[John Wheat]

[QUOTE=Mrsperfect;293154]The facts, as I understand them, are that two detectives were sent to Scotland to interview Bury before the death sentence was carried out. That makes me wonder why they would go to that expense, for a suspect deemed hardly worthy of mention, to many ripperologists.

Sure, many suspects were interviewed in London and at little cost, but a trip to Scotland would have to be justified. They must have wondered whether he could have been JtR. Bury's a fine suspect in my opinion QUOTE]

To MrsPerfect

The fact that two detectives were sent to Scotland to interview Bury must indicate that they thought Bury might be the Ripper. I wonder if they had the knowledge we now have of Serial Killers if they might have decided Bury was Jack the Ripper.

Cheers John

[John Wheat]

To Curious

I don't think wether Bury had pre-planned to kill Ellen or not when leaving for Scotland effects his candidacy a great deal. I'm not sure wether Bury's larger case was empty or not and again I don't think this effects Bury's candidacy a great deal either. I still think Bury's the strongest suspect there is.

Cheers John

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Gareth

Did he think he was special? It looks to me like he just handed himself in, weakly trying to pass off Ellen's death as a suicide. It comes across as the act of a complete loser who didn't know what to do.

You are of course quite right...and maybe quite wrong at the same time!

It is this very tame and sad act of handing himself in, a total lack of exit strategy if you like, which convinces me over and above all else that Bury isn't the slippery JtR...so yes he's a complete loser, albeit one who proved he could kill a woman...but no I don't see how he could think himself special at this late stage...(earlier on, prior to his defeating himself, yes...later no)

All the best

Dave

[The Good Michael]

But personally, when I'm packing, it's the carry-on that I pack first to be sure my necessities are handy and will be with me at all times. Of course, leaving room for the make-up bag in top, then, if there's room, I add extra almost necessary stuff until the small bag is full.

Most people would do it the opposite way. We (the vast majority) would pack all the clothing we think we would need and then use the carry-on as an overflow bag, and then start readjusting between the two as needed; a shoe here, a jacket there. I know of no one beside yourself, that would do it any other way. And I've been to 60+ countries and 49 states, traveling with tons of different people. You and Bury may be similar with regards to packing.

Mike

[curious]

Most people would do it the opposite way. We (the vast majority) would pack all the clothing we think we would need and then use the carry-on as an overflow bag, and then start readjusting between the two as needed; a shoe here, a jacket there. I know of no one beside yourself, that would do it any other way. And I've been to 60+ countries and 49 states, traveling with tons of different people. You and Bury may be similar with regards to packing.

Mike

maybe so . . .

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Eileen

The facts, as I understand them, are that two detectives were sent to Scotland to interview Bury before the death sentence was carried out. That makes me wonder why they would go to that expense

We only need to consider the rubbish suspects that were advanced at the time - some by very senior and sensible police officers - to realise that we shouldn't read too much into this.

[Mrsperfect]

Hi Sam, Where were these 'rubbish suspects'............London or Scotland? It makes a vast difference where it comes to justification of costs.

Regards

Eileen

[Mrsperfect]

Cogidubus,

How do you know WHEN Bury considered himself special? If he was JtR, then it would have been earlier on............ surely?

Regards

Eileen

P S Post #118 said:

I would have filled the larger crate first, then the smaller one. That way I would not have any clothes in the larger crate when I left the house. He definitely had a purpose for the larger one....not the smaller one!

It should read: That way I would not have any clothes in the SMALLER crate when I left the house!

[Mrsperfect]

Curious,
Bury DEFINITELY planned to kill Ellen in my opinion. How he planned it is not clear. She ended up dead, (by his hand) and his rope. I prefer the 'crate overboard' theory. That crate was empty at the lodging house they stayed at in Scotland.

We know he brought an empty crate to Scotland.
We know he had the last of Ellen's shares document on him when he handed himself into the police
We know he's capable of murder
We know the police sent two detectives to Scotland to interview him (and we don't know if they dismissed him or not). He was going to die anyway for Ellen's murder
We know he fits the FBI profile of a serial killer
We know he moved to London just before the canonical murders
We know his landlady said he terrified her, creeping up on her without any sound
We know he had a horse and cart and could travel the streets without raising any questions, as people were used to seeing him.
We know Ellen was mutilated after death
We know Ellen attempted to quell talk about JtR (he's quiet now)
We know Bury thought he was special
We know he left London after the canonical murders
We know he had a knife fetish, sleeping with one under his pillow
We know he had a horse with the glanders (and a man with a sick horse was seen near where a knife was found at a laundry shortly afterwards). The same night Bury went beserk when he returned home
We know Bury was out all night sometimes
We know a journalist suspected him as being JtR


That's a lot of information on one suspect and yet people dismiss him because of the way he handed himself into the police!

Hmmmmm

Eileen

[John Wheat]

That's a lot of information on one suspect and yet people dismiss him because of the way he handed himself into the police!

To Eileen

I think Bury is dismissed as a suspect for two reasons one the **** and bull story he gave the police and two the fact that Ellen wasn't mutilated as much as the canonical murders. However I think there are two reasons for this. Firstly I think Bury had capitulated mentally and secondly I don't think Bury was stupid enough to mutilate Ellen to the same degree as the canonicals.

Cheers John

[Sam Flynn]

We know he fits the FBI profile of a serial killer

I'd keep that one quiet if I were you, Eileen. You may as well say that he was a typical Gemini.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Eileen

How do you know WHEN Bury considered himself special? If he was JtR, then it would have been earlier on............ surely?

It's clear from the evidence that Bury was something of a cocky sod...he often dressed above his class and seemed to regard himself as a bit better than most...yes? (Perhaps this is partly down to the education he got at the Bluecoat School and partly what he'd learned from the effects of dressing in better than average clothes...)

All I have remarked upon is that this sense of superiority seems to have totally disappeared by the time he's quietly and abjectly handed himself in...

Do you suppose it's possible he's experienced some sort of breakdown between the murder and handing himself in?

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Eileen

We know he brought an empty crate to Scotland.

Well actually, for a real fact, we don't...the body was packed into the crate on top of various goods, and there was evidence that items had been removed to make room for the body, and subsequently some had been repacked around and over the body...

We know he had the last of Ellen's shares document on him when he handed himself into the police

We know he'd taken her for almost all she was worth...so why the move when if he was JtR he could've more realistically and less noticeably disposed of her in London? And what happened to her basket of jewels by the way?

We know he's capable of murder

Agreed - but JtR presumably committed at least five and cunningly slipped away and escaped each time...This sad sap kills his missus, twats idly around for a week, then hands himself in...

We know the police sent two detectives to Scotland to interview him (and we don't know if they dismissed him or not). He was going to die anyway for Ellen's murder

They came, they asked questions, they quietly went away...if they realistically thought Bury was JtR do you really think this is what would've happened? No statement...Nothing...Not even a reassuring announcement to the public?

We know he fits the FBI profile of a serial killer

Despite all fanfare and fuss I'm not aware the FBI have ever caught a single serial killer directly through profiling

We know he moved to London just before the canonical murders

As did thousands

We know his landlady said he terrified her, creeping up on her without any sound

Very objective this post-trial "evidence" - if he'd not subsequently murdered his missus, how well do you really think his landlady would've remembered him? My mother and father had a succession of lodgers some good, some not so good...but I honestly recall little of real note about ANY of them...if on the other hand, one had committed a murder...

We know he had a horse and cart and could travel the streets without raising any questions, as people were used to seeing him.

So how come the sound of a a horse and cart weren't mentioned in ANY of the accounts - except Louis Diemschitz's appearance (which vide witness accounts tends to prove a horse and cart would certainly have been noticed).

We know Ellen was mutilated after death

Only in a fairly tentative (if not imitatitive) sort of way...the wounds were mostly very superficial by comparison to the WCMs

We know Ellen attempted to quell talk about JtR (he's quiet now)

Only when directly challenged (as any Londoner might've been) by a chippy Scot...so the comment (if even true) could've meant anything...could just as easily have been a neutral deferral - "oh he's quiet just now - we don't hear anything of him any more"

We know Bury thought he was special

You've just challenged me on this elsewhere...nonetheless yes he did think he was special...but apparently not in the week after killing his missus...instead of being special and disappearing, he did sod all for a week then tamely handed himself in...is this really JtR behaviour?

We know he left London after the canonical murders

Again as did thousands...and in Bury's case not directly after either - and if the canonical five weren't the end then Bury definitely had the perfect alibi...

We know he had a knife fetish, sleeping with one under his pillow

This given, on at least one occasion...but it goes no way towards justifying a huge leap in logic that automatically makes him JtR...

I have a six inch bladed dagger and a five inch clutch knife both tucked away in my bedroom, plus a replica 19th century midshipmans sword hanging on my wall...are they merely remnants from a mis-spent youth or indications I may one day kill my missus (oh the temptation) presumably after frightening the local ladies of the street?

We know he had a horse with the glanders (and a man with a sick horse was seen near where a knife was found at a laundry shortly afterwards). The same night Bury went beserk when he returned home

The man with a sick horse account has always seemed a bit vague to me - and the account of Bury going berserk is totally uncorroborated...let alone the precise night it was alleged to have occurred.

We know Bury was out all night sometimes

Do we? Evidence please...OK it wouldn't surprise me if such a pisshead was out all night sometimes...but evidence it was THOSE nights please...

We know a journalist suspected him as being JtR

I'm afraid by the journalistic standards of the time that almost guarantees he wasn't.

Sorry

All the best

Dave