Signature Analysis and Bury's Murder of Ellen

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Wyatt. I get your point regards signature and how the killer gets his kicks, but I personally see both the Ellen murder MO and the Signature being very Jack Ripperish. I cant understand why other intelligent people don't (cough Dave!). Take into account the rarity of this kind of attack...

What kind of attack Will? Ligature strangulation, followed by a week of dithering and some half-hearted cutting/scratching - then an ignominious and unnecessary surrender to the police...fine if that's JTR's signature...but it ain't...

Alas there is no attention paid to the carotid artery, and despite unlimited time available, no organ extraction, no gross mutilation per Eddowes or Kelly, no exit strategy and no daring...just a meak surrender...

All the best

Dave

[Wyatt Earp]

...just a meak surrender...

He did not confess to Ellen’s murder when he went in to the police station. He didn’t meekly turn himself in—he tried to bluff his way out of an intractable situation. He was no doubt hoping the police would respond to his bluff the same way that you are responding to it.

[Cogidubnus]

Sorry Wyatt

He could easily have wandered into the local railway station and asked for a ticket to wherever...it isn't (wasn't) rocket science...instead he wandered into a police station and humbly gave himself up...very JtR


All the best

Dave

[Wyatt Earp]

He could easily have wandered into the local railway station and asked for a ticket to wherever

Given Bury's remarks to Lt. Parr, he no doubt feared a national manhunt for him as the Ripper if he had made a run for it. He evidently made the calculation that buying a ticket at the railway station would not have been sufficient to elude a national manhunt.

It’s safe to assume that Bury had two objectives as he searched for a way out of his predicament: 1) “I do not want to be charged with Ellen’s murder” and 2) “I do not want to be identified as the Ripper.” Burning Ellen’s remains would have addressed the second objective but not the first. In his mind flight would have addressed neither. The path he ultimately chose addressed both objectives.

[Cogidubnus]

God give me strength...if he was the Ripper he was already the subject of an international manhunt...but even as it was it seems to have taken a good deal of effort to get the Dundee police interested!

I repeat, in the LVP, all Bury had to do to get away with murdering his missus was shave off his beard, catch a train and change his name...the fact that he wasn't even up to this says a good deal to me...

All the best

Dave

[curious]

God give me strength...if he was the Ripper he was already the subject of an international manhunt...but even as it was it seems to have taken a good deal of effort to get the Dundee police interested!

I repeat, in the LVP, all Bury had to do to get away with murdering his missus was shave off his beard, catch a train and change his name...the fact that he wasn't even up to this says a good deal to me...

All the best

Dave

Hello, Dave,
I agree with this assessment. Bury's actions made no sense at all.

It is difficult for me to give up on Bury as a JtR suspect as he was the first I inclined toward. There are many things about him that I think seem to point in that direction.

However, his having no escape plan and no sense practically rules him out for me.

He left London, and insisted Ellen go with him. That interests me. If he were not JtR why not just leave her? He could have stolen her few remaining valuables or forced her to sell them and taken the money. Taking her with him seems to suggest she might know something he did not want her telling others.

But then why kill her in such as way he was sure to be caught? A throttle and push off the ferry might have been more effective. But, then of course, there was not chance to mutiliate.

And if he killed her accidentally, why not, as you say, lock the door behind him and leave town.

He could likely have been quite far away before the body was discovered.

No, Bury's actions make no sense when considering "What would Jack have done."

curious

[Wyatt Earp]

God give me strength...if he was the Ripper he was already the subject of an international manhunt...

They weren’t looking for “William Bury” at that point, though, were they? That’s what he feared.

[Wyatt Earp]

And if he killed her accidentally, why not, as you say, lock the door behind him and leave town.

And Curious, Bury's fear of being identified as the Ripper (testified to by Parr at the trial) is all you need to accept to understand why he didn't the lock the door behind him and leave town.

[John Wheat]

Bury's actions after murdering Ellen do seem strange but they don't in themselves indicate that he wasn't the Ripper. We don't know what Bury's mindset was at this time. He left Ellen's body in the trunk for days which don't seem to me to be the actions of a one time wife murderer. Bury for some reason continues to be overlooked while others prefer suspects who aren't even proven murderers. I know Chapman and James Kelly etc were murderers but Chapman murdered his wives by poisoning them and for both candidates why no more Ripper murders after Mary Jane Kelly?

[curious]

And Curious, Bury's fear of being identified as the Ripper (testified to by Parr at the trial) is all you need to accept to understand why he didn't the lock the door behind him and leave town.

Hi, Wyatt,
I believe I understand what you are saying here. That IF he locked the door and left, the police would be searching the world over for William Bury as JtR.

However, that does not explain how he did not understand that he could simply change his name, his appearance and vanish into a new life.

His lack of intelligence seems apparent here, and I have JtR envisioned as much sharper than Bury appears to be.

Although there are many things about him that I really like.

[curious]

Bury's actions after murdering Ellen do seem strange but they don't in themselves indicate that he wasn't the Ripper. We don't know what Bury's mindset was at this time. He left Ellen's body in the trunk for days which don't seem to me to be the actions of a one time wife murderer. Bury for some reason continues to be overlooked while others prefer suspects who aren't even proven murderers. I know Chapman and James Kelly etc were murderers but Chapman murdered his wives by poisoning them and for both candidates why no more Ripper murders after Mary Jane Kelly?

I agree with this, John.

One of the interesting points in my mind is the Evans family connection that both Bury and Eddowes had.

It really makes me pause.

[curious]

And Curious, Bury's fear of being identified as the Ripper (testified to by Parr at the trial) is all you need to accept to understand why he didn't the lock the door behind him and leave town.

Now, Wyatt,

This thinking interests me.

Why was he so afraid of being identified as the Ripper? He was going to hang anyway for the murder of his wife. He turned himself in for that. Not, really, of course. He cooked up a flimsy story and tried to sell it.

So, what would have made Bury afraid of being identified as the Ripper?

curious

[Wyatt Earp]

So, what would have made Bury afraid of being identified as the Ripper?

The mutilations. A foot of intestine was bulging from her abdomen.

[Boggles]

I have JtR envisioned as much sharper than Bury appears to be

.it isn't (wasn't) rocket science...instead he wandered into a police station and humbly gave himself up...very JtR

Im really enjoying this debate guys. Bury was overlooked then as he is now and for me this is one of the interesting aspects of this suspect. I wont spell out all the reasons he is the only creditable suspect as already discussed as i fear as coming across like a stuck record.

But I think the fundamental reason he was overlooked then and now is because people have this preconceived notion that Jack the Ripper was some evil genius who plotted every move, premeditated every murder and planned every escape. There is no evidence for this. I think it comes from the fact the murders so horrific in context of the times.

In fact based on other serial killers he was nothing of the kind, far more likely he was a sick, drunk, possibly drugged up maniac who was lucky not to be caught, thats all he was.
Bury wasnt stupid, he had some level of low cunning. Its just he was lazy and possibly deranged. If you look at the life cycle of other serial killers towards the end they tend to get complacent and make mistakes.

So if he was the ripper why did he not confess to it? Im interested to know as well equally if he was why should he?

[Wyatt Earp]

Hi, Wyatt,
I believe I understand what you are saying here. That IF he locked the door and left, the police would be searching the world over for William Bury as JtR.

However, that does not explain how he did not understand that he could simply change his name, his appearance and vanish into a new life.

His lack of intelligence seems apparent here, and I have JtR envisioned as much sharper than Bury appears to be.

Yes, you understand me correctly. I'm not suggesting that this is what the police would actually have done, I'm suggesting that this is what Bury must have thought they might do. If the police were conducting a massive search for him as JTR, do you really believe that a name change and a different method of shaving would have been sufficient to elude them?