Signature Analysis and Bury's Murder of Ellen

[Boggles]

Why was he so afraid of being identified as the Ripper?

Just on this interesting question, we do know that Bury was afraid as being identified from the trial notes he actually said.

Just a thought - The JTR murders where a sensation, everyone would have been talking about them and what they would have done to the fellow if they had a chance.
We're not talking about nowdays where every prisoner has human rights and access to internet - this is Victorian Britain. Bury knew very well that if it was known he was the Ripper he would have received at best a severe ass kicking (rightly in my view)
In the days leading up to his death he was surrounded by a lot of big men with batons.

So I ask why wouldnt he have been afraid of being identified as the Ripper?

[John Wheat]

Why would a one time wife murderer be afraid as being identified as the Ripper? And why mutilate the abdomen? If Bury was just a one time murderer surely he could just have left Ellen's body in the trunk and left Dundee. I've seen Bury often being dismissed as he didn't confess to all and sundry that he was the Ripper. But surely if he was a copycat murderer then he'd be likely to confess to the Ripper murders just for the infamy.

[curious]

because people have this preconceived notion that Jack the Ripper was some evil genius who plotted every move, premeditated every murder and planned every escape.


In fact based on other serial killers he was nothing of the kind, far more likely he was a sick, drunk, possibly drugged up maniac who was lucky not to be caught, thats all he was.
Bury wasnt stupid, he had some level of low cunning. Its just he was lazy and possibly deranged. If you look at the life cycle of other serial killers towards the end they tend to get complacent and make mistakes.

So if he was the ripper why did he not confess to it? Im interested to know as well equally if he was why should he?

Hi, Boggles,
To some degree you're right about people's visions of an evil genius JtR. I must confess that if Bury displayed more intelligence, a la H.H. Holmes, I would be happier with him as a suspect.

I'm interested in your take in bold: "far more likely he was a sick, drunk, possibly drugged up maniac who was lucky not to be caught, thats all he was.'

From what are you arriving at that?

Bury was cunning. He was known to have swindled people and conned people in the past. His past as a hawker and his last job fit perfectly into a scenario I can concoct of him "wooing" the victims somewhat, lulling them into a feeling of security with him -- all those new items most of them seem to have had lead me to wonder about that.

I also think Bury deteriorated rapidly, and yes the ones who get caught often sink into laziness or complacency or go on a rampage like Bundy did. So, I buy that.

There's even a reason he did not confess -- he wanted to prove he was smarter than everyone else. It would have satisfied him to go to his grave having outsmarted everyone. IMO of course.

curious

[curious]

Just on this interesting question, we do know that Bury was afraid as being identified from the trial notes he actually said.

Just a thought - The JTR murders where a sensation, everyone would have been talking about them and what they would have done to the fellow if they had a chance.
We're not talking about nowdays where every prisoner has human rights and access to internet - this is Victorian Britain. Bury knew very well that if it was known he was the Ripper he would have received at best a severe ass kicking (rightly in my view)
In the days leading up to his death he was surrounded by a lot of big men with batons.

So I ask why wouldnt he have been afraid of being identified as the Ripper?

Ok, this makes some sense to me. Fear of his treatment at the hands of jailer and even the public storming the jail might have created that fear in his mind.

I was seeing that he would hang either way, and he could only be killed one time, I wasn't seeing the difference.

However, if he had been returned to London for trial . . . now that would be horrible to contemplate for anyone. So, that makes sense.

However, let's see if there is a possible reason that a little man who murdered his wife, with JtR on his mind, who kept going back to the body, trying to be just as big a bada$$ as JtR, sitting all alone in that dingy basement with the body, not able to figure out what to do, . . .

He had to be completely bonkers by the time he arrived at the police station . . .

He was a small man. Was he big enough to be JtR?

[Boggles]

Hi Curious

sitting all alone in that dingy basement with the body, not able to figure out what to do,

He basically just did what JTR would have done. He left the body at the scene. He also mopped up abit and went down the pub.

He was a small man. Was he big enough to be JtR?

- Bury was 5 3' is this too short? The witnesses range around 5.5- 5.7. A hat may give him a couple more inches it could be argued.
Think of someone you saw today earlier in the street for a moment and try to remember their height - best is where the witness compares with something else - ie the victim.
Elizabeth Long - ''appeared to be a little taller than deceased.'(who was 5 feet tall)
Levy - ''man was about three inches taller than the woman (who was also 5 feet tall)

So to answer your question i would propose he is a good height for JTR - Short does not mean weak.

[curious]

Why would a one time wife murderer be afraid as being identified as the Ripper? And why mutilate the abdomen? If Bury was just a one time murderer surely he could just have left Ellen's body in the trunk and left Dundee. I've seen Bury often being dismissed as he didn't confess to all and sundry that he was the Ripper. But surely if he was a copycat murderer then he'd be likely to confess to the Ripper murders just for the infamy.

Hi, John, Boggles,
It has occurred to me that one characteristic of Bury was that he liked to be thought by others that he was more than he was -- the clothes, the business cards, the trip back to Wolverhampton.

He was a con man, a swindler.

Bury himself put the idea into the heads of the police that he might be JtR. Of course, he phrased it as fear, but he planted the idea and apparently kept talking about it.

Bury sat alone with the body for about a week, trying to decide what to do. He kept going back to the body and inflicting more damage -- arguably trying to decide if he had done as much as the Ripper would have done. (And even with a week, he could not do what was done to Mary Kelly, which makes me believe she had to be a Ripper victim -- whole nother thread, of course).

I'm proposing that this was Bury's final con -- not to claim to be JtR, but to have everyone wondering. He died feeling that he was smarter than the people around him.

That could have been the reason for his statement to Berry, the hangman, "but as you are to hang me, you'll not get anything from me."

He left people wondering, which was his final con.

Possible?

curious

[curious]

Hi Curious


He basically just did what JTR would have done. He left the body at the scene. He also mopped up abit and went down the pub.

- Bury was 5 3' is this too short? The witnesses range around 5.5- 5.7. A hat may give him a couple more inches it could be argued.
Think of someone you saw today earlier in the street for a moment and try to remember their height - best is where the witness compares with something else - ie the victim.
Elizabeth Long - ''appeared to be a little taller than deceased.'(who was 5 feet tall)
Levy - ''man was about three inches taller than the woman (who was also 5 feet tall)

So to answer your question i would propose he is a good height for JTR - Short does not mean weak.

You're right, short does not mean weak. But from the quoted description of Bury by one of the reporters, doesn't he have the appearance of weak?

To my way of thinking, Long's description best fits Bury of all the witness descriptions. My problem (and it is largely MY problem :-)) is that I don't believe Long saw Chapman and her killer. I believe Chapman was long dead by that time.

So, probably Bury was not technically too short.

curious

[Wyatt Earp]

However, let's see if there is a possible reason that a little man who murdered his wife, with JtR on his mind, who kept going back to the body, trying to be just as big a bada$$ as JtR, sitting all alone in that dingy basement with the body, not able to figure out what to do

Curious, the main set of mutilations was conducted at the time of the murder, in the heat of the moment, and was part of the murder sequence itself. They were not the work of a little man who sometime following the murder decided to play JTR and dink around with the body. If Bury had been the copycat or imitator you describe, he would have cut Ellen’s throat at some point in the proceedings.

[johns]

Very interesting debate guys n gals.

My take on the JtR murders has always been that they were committed by a man who wasn't an evil genius, but a man who "ran red lights" and got away with it.

I remember a thread on the old Casebook forum many years ago where someone who I can't remember now, described Bury/JtR as running red lights and each murder was a spur of the moment decision with no pre-planning and a hurried escape afterwards.

I've thought for a long time now that Bury was JtR. I do however shake my head at some of the decisions he made in Dundee, but I also shake my head at some decisions made by my own brother... or various other folks I meet.

Bury fled London as he thought it "too hot" to remain there. One of his few instances of a "plan". We'll never know if he planned to kill Ellen, but I believe he did kill her in an unplanned manner while he was drunk/during a heated argument. His pathetic behaviour afterwards can only be explained in my head by the fact that this time he had murdered his own wife, not a stranger as previously. He couldn't just bugger off down the road after Ellen's murder. In his mind he had to invent a story on how she died. Like the idiot he was he invented an utterly nonsensical story.

His "teasing" comments about him being arrested as Jack the Ripper or a Jack Ripper and the graffiti at the flat are, again these are just what I personally believe, typical of an "awkward git".

Regards
John

[curious]

Curious, the main set of mutilations was conducted at the time of the murder, in the heat of the moment, and was part of the murder sequence itself. They were not the work of a little man who sometime following the murder decided to play JTR and dink around with the body. If Bury had been the copycat or imitator you describe, he would have cut Ellen’s throat at some point in the proceedings.

Thanks, Wyatt. It's been awhile since I studied the mutilations.

curious

[Boggles]

dink around with the body

Didn't Ridgway and Bundy do similar things, sick bastards all of them.

johns good to hear from you again - yes i remember that message some guy in New York i believe. He put it very well. had a quick google search to quote it but cant find it though

I hope they don't archive this forum like they did last 2 times takes us ages to bring up all our info lol

Long's description best fits Bury of all the witness descriptions.

I disagree most describe a man ~30 but Long was older 40. Well perhaps we should look at this i might pull together a summary.

Cheers

[curious]

Very interesting debate guys n gals.

1. My take on the JtR murders has always been that they were committed by a man who wasn't an evil genius, but a man who "ran red lights" and got away with it.

I remember a thread on the old Casebook forum many years ago where someone who I can't remember now, described Bury/JtR as running red lights and each murder was a spur of the moment decision with no pre-planning and a hurried escape afterwards.

2. I've thought for a long time now that Bury was JtR. I do however shake my head at some of the decisions he made in Dundee, but I also shake my head at some decisions made by my own brother... or various other folks I meet.

3. Bury fled London as he thought it "too hot" to remain there. One of his few instances of a "plan".

4. We'll never know if he planned to kill Ellen, but I believe he did kill her in an unplanned manner while he was drunk/during a heated argument. His pathetic behaviour afterwards can only be explained in my head by the fact that this time he had murdered his own wife, not a stranger as previously. He couldn't just bugger off down the road after Ellen's murder. In his mind he had to invent a story on how she died. Like the idiot he was he invented an utterly nonsensical story.

5. His "teasing" comments about him being arrested as Jack the Ripper or a Jack Ripper and the graffiti at the flat are, again these are just what I personally believe, typical of an "awkward git".

Regards
John

Hi, John,
I like the thought of JtR being a man who "ran red lights" and got away with it" and the murders were unplanned.

I've never seen him as an evil genius (like Holmes) exactly, but not slow either. There is an American serial killer, Tommy Lynn Sells, who would kill people he felt "disrespected him" as well as numerous others. He did not kill in anger and on the spot, but would follow people home from a convenience store or where ever the imagined/real disrespect took place. Or, he would get off a train (hobo) in a desolate area, kill and hop another train. Because he was a drifter, Sells was never on anyone's radar until he married and settled down. He just could not stop killing.

Anyway, how this relates to Bury, I wonder if somehow the victims might have disrespected him?

2. I often shake my head at my own decisions wondering how in the world I could have thought something was a good idea.

3. His timing on leaving London also figures heavily into my considering him a likely JtR candidate. That and he took Ellen with him. I can see no reason (and I've got a pretty good imagination) for taking her unless he thought she might say something he did not want her to.

4. He had no where to run to. If he was JtR, before he always had somewhere to go. This time he did not. And perhaps in his own way, he was attached to Ellen and the emotions he felt completely affected his reasoning ability.

5. Possible. But since he characteristically wanted people to believe him more than he was . . . I think that week he doddered around in his basement apartment, he came up with that idea.

Certainly, Bury is an interesting study.

curious

[curious]

Didn't Ridgway and Bundy do similar things, sick bastards all of them.

I disagree most describe a man ~30 but Long was older 40. Well perhaps we should look at this i might pull together a summary.

Cheers

Yes, Ridgway and Bundy and others whose names I don't recall. In JtR's murders, since they were left where they were killed, he did not have the opportunity to do that -- if it had ever been something he would have wanted to do. So, if Bury was JtR, Ellen likely presented him his first opportunity to do that -- we don't know for sure there were not other murders.

AND if Bury was JtR, I think there must have been other murders or other "rumors" about him because of Eddowes.

About Long -- she would have had the age wrong, but didn't everything else fit Bury to a T?

curious

[Mrsperfect]

Ellen knew too much!

I think we tend to over think things sometimes............

Bury was getting through Ellen's money fast. She would have been very reluctant to give him the remainder of her inheritance. Her sister Margaret was trying to get her to leave him, he had to get her out of London. Ellen knew too much!

He did intend to kill Ellen, otherwise why bring an empty packing case to Dundee? I am inclined to believe he was going to kill her and throw her (packed in the case) overboard on the way to Dundee.

If he was unable to get the opportunity, he would have been worried how to get rid of her. I don't think he planned to kill her in Dundee but there was no plan B.

He didn't get the remainder of her money, so what was he going to do? He'd killed the person he was living off and had no prospects of a job. I think he just gave up!

[John Wheat]

I concur with Mrsperfect however I also wonder what Bury's mind state was I suggest the possibility that he'd lost it big time. You only have to look at the **** and bull story he came up with to explain Ellen's death.