Signature Analysis and Bury's Murder of Ellen

[John Wheat]

To Boggles an excellent post.

I agree there is more linking Bury to the case than any other suspect we know of. Bury seems to be overlooked as a suspect because Ellen Bury's murder wasn't as brutal as Mary Jane Kelly's which is ridiculous when there are very few suspects that are even proven murders. Let alone murderers that mutilate genitals.

Cheers John

[Boggles]

Dave,
on this specific point

3) He's clearly confused and has no escape strategy...in all the canonicals (and non-canonicals for that matter) JtR shows a great alertness and a clean pair of heels...he can escape virtually at an instants notice...yet here he tamely holds onto the body for a week, then tamely gives himself up? Sorry doesn't do it for me...

Do the FBI not categorise serial killers into disorganised and organised? (albiet there are overlaps) and is not JTR generally regarded by them as falling into the mostly into the disorganised type; ie- lucky rather than preplanning an exit strategy.

That being the case i would suggest that leaving the body in a box and deciding to do sod all about it would fit JTR profile rather neatly?
As for giving himself up, dont forget he almost got off scot free.

from somthing i found on google- Typological offender profiling

Disorganised
The disorganised killer is out of control and leaves a chaotic crime scene. His attacks are spontaneous and show little evidence of planning. Whilst his victims may have basic features in common (e.g. all women), there is little to suggest they have been carefully selected and most seem
to be targets of opportunity.
Disorganised killers surprise their victims and kill them at or near the
scene where they first strike. The victim is usually killed quickly in an uncontrolled manner.
Disorganised killers generally do not bind or control their victims and their weapons are usually improvised and/or acquired at the scene of the attack. There is usually little or no attempt to conceal the body or to hide or remove evidence. Trophies are taken only infrequently and the killer generally does not follow their crimes in the news.
The disorganised offender has poor social skills. He is unlikely to be able to maintain a stable romantic/sexual relationship and generally lives alone, probably close to the scene of his crimes. He probably has poor personal hygiene. His level of intelligence is likely to be low and if employed his
work is likely to be unskilled. He may well be suffering from acute psychological disturbance and could be psychotic.

[Boggles]

2) The abdominal wounding is altogether too tentative..

they were very similar to Mary Ann Nichols maybee worse, as i read it, perhaps we will have to agree to differ on this, but certainly worse than all 'Other Alleged Ripper Victims' outside C5

[Boggles]

1) He didn't cut her throat...if only he'd cut her throat...even with Stride he cut her throat...

More telling for me is that he didnt, he used a blitz attack followed by partial asphyxia, something many increasingly believe JTR did and a copy cat wouldn't, as Wyatt very well points out above, the method can vary. Ligature strangulation is a more refined method, suggestive that he did kill before.

But one more comment on this as i know this throat cutting point is important to you Dave, from the trial notes we know he did try (on at least one occasion) to cut his wife's throat as was interrupted by the landlady - and unless im mistaken in fact the only suspect in fact we know of that had a knife against a woman's throat.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Will

Do the FBI not categorise serial killers into disorganised and organised? (albiet there are overlaps) and is not JTR generally regarded by them as falling into the mostly into the disorganised type; ie- lucky rather than preplanning an exit strategy.

That being the case i would suggest that leaving the body in a box and deciding to do sod all about it would fit JTR profile rather neatly?
As for giving himself up, dont forget he almost got off scot free.

Whether JtR was cunning or plain lucky I couldn't/wouldn't begin to guess...but escape he did...every time...

Had Bury been JtR don't you think he had plenty of opportunity for escape and subsequent reappearance elsewhere under another identity? A week's worth of opportunity in fact.

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Will

they were very similar to Mary Ann Nichols maybee worse, as i read it, perhaps we will have to agree to differ on this, but certainly worse than all 'Other Alleged Ripper Victims' outside C5

I'm sorry but this does not stand up...the post-mortem wounds inflicted on Polly Nichols were of a far more serious nature...and not like the more tentative (and likely two-stage) injuries of Ellen Bury.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not dismissing Bury as a suspect. I think he's a cracking suspect...but at the same time, let's not overcook things

Cheers

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Throat Cutting

Hello again Will

More telling for me is that he didnt, he used a blitz attack followed by partial asphyxia, something many increasingly believe JTR did and a copy cat wouldn't, as Wyatt very well points out above, the method can vary. Ligature strangulation is a more refined method, suggestive that he did kill before.

But one more comment on this as i know this throat cutting point is important to you Dave, from the trial notes we know he did try (on at least one occasion) to cut his wife's throat as was interrupted by the landlady - and unless im mistaken in fact the only suspect in fact we know of that had a knife against a woman's throat.

Blitz attack fair enough...I tend to believe JtR was explosively fast... partial asphyxia again fair enough in itself...but use of a ligature (previously unseen) and a total neglect of the carotid artery in a scenario even more secure than MJKs ? Sorry but to me that's a totally different MO.

All the best

Dave

[Boggles]

Dave, I genuinely do not believe the nichols mutilations to be worse than Burys side by side, there are more numerous mutiliations on Bury than Nichols. We can debate this subject on the other thread, comparing side by side, if you like once i finally get round to posting the rest of the medical evidence if you would be so kind as to transcribe as you did on the other ones!

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Will

Of course mate...bung me an email!

Dave

[Wyatt Earp]

Blitz attack fair enough...I tend to believe JtR was explosively fast...

It was very much a blitz attack, just like the others in the Ripper series. The medical testimony at Bury's trial indicated that the initial attack was a blow to the head with possibly a poker. Bam, and she was either very dazed or down for the count. He then strangled her to death.

[Wyatt Earp]

Whether JtR was cunning or plain lucky I couldn't/wouldn't begin to guess...but escape he did...every time...

Had Bury been JtR don't you think he had plenty of opportunity for escape and subsequent reappearance elsewhere under another identity? A week's worth of opportunity in fact.

I don't quite understand the resistance to the idea that the murder was unanticipated. If during the course of an argument Ellen had threatened to go to the police, and there is nothing implausible about that, then he might have felt he had no choice but to kill her on the spot. In his letter of confession, Bury indicated that the murder was unanticipated. The fact that he sat around with the body for days following the murder before deciding on a course of action is consistent with it having been unanticipated. Why such strong resistance to the idea that the murder was unanticipated?

If the murder was unanticipated, then he found himself in a real pickle and had no good escape options. We know from his initial remarks at the police station that he was very concerned about being identified as the Ripper. He no doubt had it in his head that if he made a run for it, there might have been a massive national manhunt for him as Jack the Ripper and no stone would have been left unturned in tracking him down.

As those who have read Beadle's 2009 book know, the self-strangulation story might have occurred to him after having read about something similar in the newspaper (see page 238). While the story might seem ridiculous to us today, it wouldn't have seemed quite so ridiculous to him when something similar had just recently been reported in the paper.

There is good reason to believe that Bury was an alcoholic, and we know from the crazy things he did to Ellen's body that he was a maniac. I'm not sure we can count on people in the "alcoholic maniac" demographic to always display the best judgment. Hindsight is 20/20, and while you or I might have chosen a different way out of the situation, we need to keep in mind that medical testimony supporting self-strangulation was presented at Bury's trial and the jury's initial verdict suggests that he might indeed have come close to an acquittal.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

*... and unless im mistaken in fact the only suspect in fact we know of that had a knife against a woman's throat.

James Kelly. And he did the business with it.

[John Wheat]

Yes James Kelly killed his wife in 1883 by stabbing her in the throat. But went on to live the rest of his life without killing anyone else. That all considered James Kelly wasn't the Ripper.

[Abby Normal]

James Kelly. And he did the business with it.

chapman did also to one of his "wives". before he poisoned her to death of course

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo!

Yes James Kelly killed his wife in 1883 by stabbing her in the throat. But went on to live the rest of his life without killing anyone else. That all considered James Kelly wasn't the Ripper.

Wasn't promoting James Kelly as "JTR". Might I ask how you know he didn't kill anyone else?