Mock trial for Bury Feb 3

[Lewis C]

The 3 biggest single contributing factors for Bury having been the Ripper; is that...


He was a proven killer

He mutilated his wife's abdomen post mortem; for no apparent reason.

His handwriting is very similar in terms of form and syntex when compared to some of the alleged Ripper correspondences (thanks to amazing work undertaken by Bern Irca over on Forums)

Those 3 factors combined are what SHOULD make Bury fit comfortably into anyone's top 5 suspects.


However, the 3 biggest factors that work against him having been the Ripper;

He was hanged before Mckenzie, Pinchin Street and Coles and before other alleged Ripper written correspondences came into fruition.

He chose to conceal his wife's body rather than display her for shock value; a primary component of an authentic Ripper kill.

The man who hanged him; James Berry, makes no reference to Bury whatsoever in his autobiography, in which he mentions the likes of Pearcey, Lipski and Conway. The story in the press that Bury confessed to being the Ripper in his cell, does not ring true. If there was any hint at Bury having confessed to being the Ripper; then Berry would have at least mentioned his name.


Ultimately; it's a matter of balance and what we would consider reasonable doubt.


I would suggest that without Bury having mutilated his wife's abdomen post mortem, then Bury would fall a long way down the list of potential suspects.

There is a possibility that in Bury openly expressing concern that the people may think he was the Ripper; he was in fact implementing reverse psychology. He knew he was doomed and after killing his wife in a fit of rage, he then had a choice...
...to be hanged as a wife murderer, or to try and obtain and redeem some infamy and plant the " Bury is the Ripper" seed into the public psyche.

Did Bury make an attempt to make it look as though he was the Ripper by choosing to mutilate his victim post mortem?
Doing down in a blaze of glory and all that.


Fascinating nonetheless



RD

Hi RD,

I agree with your first 2 reasons for thinking that Bury is one of the top suspects, but differ on other things. I believe that except for maybe the From Hell letter, the Ripper letters are hoaxes, so perceived similarity to the writing in them wouldn't strengthen the case against him.

I believe that if the Ripper had killed his wife, he wouldn't have displayed her body. It only makes sense to to that if the victim can't be connected to the killer.

I agree that there's no reason to believe that Bury confessed to being The Ripper, but I don't think that makes his being the Ripper any less likely.

[The Rookie Detective]

But Bury's murder of his wife is much more similar to the C5 than the Torso murders.

The 3 biggest single contributing factors for Bury having been the Ripper; is that...


He was a proven killer

He mutilated his wife's abdomen post mortem; for no apparent reason.

His handwriting is very similar in terms of form and syntex when compared to some of the alleged Ripper correspondences (thanks to amazing work undertaken by Bern Irca over on Forums)

Those 3 factors combined are what SHOULD make Bury fit comfortably into anyone's top 5 suspects.


However, the 3 biggest factors that work against him having been the Ripper;

He was hanged before Mckenzie, Pinchin Street and Coles and before other alleged Ripper written correspondences came into fruition.

He chose to conceal his wife's body rather than display her for shock value; a primary component of an authentic Ripper kill.

The man who hanged him; James Berry, makes no reference to Bury whatsoever in his autobiography, in which he mentions the likes of Pearcey, Lipski and Conway. The story in the press that Bury confessed to being the Ripper in his cell, does not ring true. If there was any hint at Bury having confessed to being the Ripper; then Berry would have at least mentioned his name.


Ultimately; it's a matter of balance and what we would consider reasonable doubt.


I would suggest that without Bury having mutilated his wife's abdomen post mortem, then Bury would fall a long way down the list of potential suspects.

There is a possibility that in Bury openly expressing concern that the people may think he was the Ripper; he was in fact implementing reverse psychology. He knew he was doomed and after killing his wife in a fit of rage, he then had a choice...
...to be hanged as a wife murderer, or to try and obtain and redeem some infamy and plant the " Bury is the Ripper" seed into the public psyche.

Did Bury make an attempt to make it look as though he was the Ripper by choosing to mutilate his victim post mortem?
Doing down in a blaze of glory and all that.


Fascinating nonetheless



RD

[John Wheat]

There is nothing in the rulebook that says serial killers can't de-escalate.

It's based on flawed criminal profiling, the same one which said serial killers kill and kill and kill and kill, and never stop. We know that to be untrue. It's often been mooted that the killer 'peaked' at Miller's Court. Bury's heart was no longer in it. He mutilated Ellen's corpse out of pure instinct but he couldn't finish the job, so boxed her up. He had time to run, hop on a boat to America, but he didn't. Instead, he waited before going to the cop shop. Many serial killers are ultimately architects of their own demise once they run out of steam.

Why did Bury drag his missus to the other end of the country under false pretenses? Was it just to get her as far away as possible from her family? Or did he feel like the net was closing on him and he had to get out of Dodge?

My position remains the same. William Bury is the best of the named suspects based on the fact he's the only one proven to have committed a "Ripper-esque" murder who can be placed in the East End at the time, and his movements correspond with the canonical five. However, I think a convincing argument can be made for the Torso & Ripper series being committed by the same hand, which would obviously rule him out.

But Bury's murder of his wife is much more similar to the C5 than the Torso murders.

[Wyatt Earp]

I'm not sure we know for sure however the debate as to wether Jack was right or left handed has raged for years.

Bury was right-handed. At Bury's trial Elizabeth Haynes provided the following testimony regarding an incident involving William and Ellen Bury:

“About eleven at night I heard her cry out in bed room. I went up and into their room. She was in bed. He was also. He was kneeling on top of her with a table knife in his right hand. She was continuing to cry out, and said he was going to kill her.”

[Busy Beaver]

Oh well, we're still no closer to getting the right "man". I was hoping that argument had been agreed upon and I had missed it.

[John Wheat]

Sorry if I missed it elsewhere, but was William Bury Left of Right handed?

I'm not sure we know for sure however the debate as to wether Jack was right or left handed has raged for years.

[Busy Beaver]

Sorry if I missed it elsewhere, but was William Bury Left of Right handed?

[Abby Normal]

There is nothing in the rulebook that says serial killers can't de-escalate.

It's based on flawed criminal profiling, the same one which said serial killers kill and kill and kill and kill, and never stop. We know that to be untrue. It's often been mooted that the killer 'peaked' at Miller's Court. Bury's heart was no longer in it. He mutilated Ellen's corpse out of pure instinct but he couldn't finish the job, so boxed her up. He had time to run, hop on a boat to America, but he didn't. Instead, he waited before going to the cop shop. Many serial killers are ultimately architects of their own demise once they run out of steam.

Why did Bury drag his missus to the other end of the country under false pretenses? Was it just to get her as far away as possible from her family? Or did he feel like the net was closing on him and he had to get out of Dodge?

My position remains the same. William Bury is the best of the named suspects based on the fact he's the only one proven to have committed a "Ripper-esque" murder who can be placed in the East End at the time, and his movements correspond with the canonical five. However, I think a convincing argument can be made for the Torso & Ripper series being committed by the same hand, which would obviously rule him out.

good post harry

[Wyatt Earp]

The documentary about the mock trial is already out. See http://trialofjacktheripper.pagedemo.co/. I have a brief write-up on the Bury website.

[Harry D]

There is nothing in the rulebook that says serial killers can't de-escalate.

It's based on flawed criminal profiling, the same one which said serial killers kill and kill and kill and kill, and never stop. We know that to be untrue. It's often been mooted that the killer 'peaked' at Miller's Court. Bury's heart was no longer in it. He mutilated Ellen's corpse out of pure instinct but he couldn't finish the job, so boxed her up. He had time to run, hop on a boat to America, but he didn't. Instead, he waited before going to the cop shop. Many serial killers are ultimately architects of their own demise once they run out of steam.

Why did Bury drag his missus to the other end of the country under false pretenses? Was it just to get her as far away as possible from her family? Or did he feel like the net was closing on him and he had to get out of Dodge?

My position remains the same. William Bury is the best of the named suspects based on the fact he's the only one proven to have committed a "Ripper-esque" murder who can be placed in the East End at the time, and his movements correspond with the canonical five. However, I think a convincing argument can be made for the Torso & Ripper series being committed by the same hand, which would obviously rule him out.

[John Wheat]

Interestingly, there is evidence that Bury planned to murder is wife before they left London. Thus, he managed to persuade her to relocate to Dundee on the basis that he'd obtained employment with Malcolm, Olgilvy a Co. However, this was completely bogus, although he even forged a letter from the company, clearly written in his own handwriting, confirming the conditions of his employment.

Why the eagerness to get Ellen to Dundee? Well, if he'd planned to kill her then committing the deed in London would have been highly risky, as there were a number of people who'd witnessed him assault his wife, i.e. James Martin, Elizabeth Haynes, William Smith.

However, once in Dundee he apparently turned over a new leaf, presenting himself as the model husband, to the extent were one witness at the trial stated that the Burys "seemed to be on very affectionate terms."

In all likeliness Bury left London because he was Jack. Otherwise why not kill your wife and then flee to Dundee?

[John G]

Interestingly, there is evidence that Bury planned to murder is wife before they left London. Thus, he managed to persuade her to relocate to Dundee on the basis that he'd obtained employment with Malcolm, Olgilvy a Co. However, this was completely bogus, although he even forged a letter from the company, clearly written in his own handwriting, confirming the conditions of his employment.

Why the eagerness to get Ellen to Dundee? Well, if he'd planned to kill her then committing the deed in London would have been highly risky, as there were a number of people who'd witnessed him assault his wife, i.e. James Martin, Elizabeth Haynes, William Smith.

However, once in Dundee he apparently turned over a new leaf, presenting himself as the model husband, to the extent were one witness at the trial stated that the Burys "seemed to be on very affectionate terms."

[John G]

Hi John
When was it written and discovered?

Hi Abby,

The report of the chalk writing appeared in the Dundee Advertiser on the 12th February, the same day that the newspapers reported the rumours that Jack the Ripper had come to Dundee and given himself up.

Interestingly, the article states that the writing was older than the discovery of Ellen's death, although I'm not sure how they could have determined that with any degree of certainty. Of course, the same argument has been raging on for years in respect of the GSG: was it something that had been written recently, or was it an older piece of graffiti?

[Abby Normal]

What's also confusing in that respect is the chalk writing confession: "Jack Ripper is at the back of this door", and "Jack Ripper is in this seller [sic]."

Okay, I know the Dundee Advertiser suggested it looked as though it was written by a small boy, but that was presumably because of the spelling and grammatical mistakes-which interestingly also applies to The Diary!

Personally, I think on balance Bury wrote it: if it was there when he moved in it would represent a huge coincidence considering what subsequently happened. And why not rub it off? It's also highly unlikely that someone else wrote it after the murder because no one but Bury entered the apartment from the time of the murder to the discovery of the body; and once the murder had been reported at least one policeman was on duty at the scene of the crime.

Hi John
When was it written and discovered?

[John G]

LOL. well we already know that. but why specifically slash the stomach post mortem?

especially hard to explain because he was apparently obsessed about NOT being accused of being the ripper?

What's also confusing in that respect is the chalk writing confession: "Jack Ripper is at the back of this door", and "Jack Ripper is in this seller [sic]."

Okay, I know the Dundee Advertiser suggested it looked as though it was written by a small boy, but that was presumably because of the spelling and grammatical mistakes-which interestingly also applies to The Diary!

Personally, I think on balance Bury wrote it: if it was there when he moved in it would represent a huge coincidence considering what subsequently happened. And why not rub it off? It's also highly unlikely that someone else wrote it after the murder because no one but Bury entered the apartment from the time of the murder to the discovery of the body; and once the murder had been reported at least one policeman was on duty at the scene of the crime.