Mock trial for Bury Feb 3

[John Wheat]

I understand all that Sam and you didn't answer the question.

What I cant understand, whether he killed her not (and he did) is why cut the stomach once shes already dead?

any reason you can think of?

The only logical explanation is that he was Jack.

[Abby Normal]

It was scarcely a cut worth writing home about. The whole "mutilation" of Ellen Bury strkes me as somewhat tentative, half-hearted affair. Certainly not the work of someone with at least four accomplished mutilation murders under his belt, three of which were conducted under extreme time-pressure in public places.

I understand all that Sam and you didn't answer the question.

What I cant understand, whether he killed her not (and he did) is why cut the stomach once shes already dead?

any reason you can think of?

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks Sam
why cut her in the abdomen at all then?

It was scarcely a cut worth writing home about. The whole "mutilation" of Ellen Bury strkes me as somewhat tentative, half-hearted affair. Certainly not the work of someone with at least four accomplished mutilation murders under his belt, three of which were conducted under extreme time-pressure in public places.

[Sam Flynn]

But doesn't this scenario, a drunk Bury arriving home, flipping, and losing control, equally support the argument that he murdered his wife?

Indeed it could, John. Either scenario is possible - I don't see why a nasty piece of work like Bury couldn't have blown a fuse and inflicted drunken violence on Ellen's body whether he found her dead or alive.

[John G]

I must be one of them plebs, then, because I don't find that in the least unbelievable.

He was a violent drunkard, like you say, so why couldn't he have come home pissed and, finding his wife had killed herself, flipped and "lost his rag" with her one final time?

I'm not saying that's what happened, but it's certainly not unlikely.

But doesn't this scenario, a drunk Bury arriving home, flipping, and losing control, equally support the argument that he murdered his wife?

[John Wheat]

Thanks Abby.

In Ellen's specific case, Bury had all the time and opportunity in the world to do a proper job on her, but she got off far more lightly than even Tabram, never mind Nichols and the other Whitechapel (as opposed to Bromley) evisceration victims.

Bury was hardly likely to hang himself? If Bury had gone to town more on Ellen Bury he would have been hung as Jack as it is Bury nearly got off in 1889.

[Abby Normal]

Thanks Abby.

In Ellen's specific case, Bury had all the time and opportunity in the world to do a proper job on her, but she got off far more lightly than even Tabram, never mind Nichols and the other Whitechapel (as opposed to Bromley) evisceration victims.

Thanks Sam
why cut her in the abdomen at all then?

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks Abby.

In Ellen's specific case, Bury had all the time and opportunity in the world to do a proper job on her, but she got off far more lightly than even Tabram, never mind Nichols and the other Whitechapel (as opposed to Bromley) evisceration victims.

[Abby Normal]

I rule out Stride, Tabram and McKenzie as their wounds were of a rather different character to the Ripper's victims. Nichols was significantly more mutilated than either of those (and Ellen Bury for that matter), sustaining severe abdominal wounds and a deeply cut throat, making her a definite Ripper victim in my view.

thanks Sam
Appreciate the clarification. However, I think you are not taking into account enough the different circumstances that could influence the end result:

Tabram: hadn't perfected mature MO
Stride:was interupted
Mackenzie: interupted and or extremely impaired (alcohol/sickness)

Ellen Bury: (if she was a ripper victim) its his wife and it happened in there home and or severely impaired (alcohol/mental deterioration).

[Harry D]

The manner of Ellen Bury's death alone rules him out as the Ripper, assuming he killed her... and I really have no problem with the idea that he did.

No desperation involved.

No assumptions necessary. If the evidence wasn't damning enough, he admitted to it.

[Sam Flynn]

"Some people" are so desperate to discredit Bury as a Ripper suspect that they want to absolve him of the one murder he was absolutely guilty of.

The manner of Ellen Bury's death alone rules him out as the Ripper, assuming he killed her... and I really have no problem with the idea that he did.

No desperation involved.

[Harry D]

"Some people" are so desperate to discredit Bury as a Ripper suspect that they want to absolve him of the one murder he was absolutely guilty of.

[Sam Flynn]

I rule out Stride, Tabram and McKenzie as their wounds were of a rather different character to the Ripper's victims. Nichols was significantly more mutilated than either of those (and Ellen Bury for that matter), sustaining severe abdominal wounds and a deeply cut throat, making her a definite Ripper victim in my view.

[Abby Normal]

A Ripper who couldn't help himself, even a Ripper who could help himself, would likely have inflicted even more damage on the body. What was to stop him doing so?

It's that, incidentally, not a closed mind on my part, that makes me rule out Bury as JTR.

Hi Sam
Do you rule out Nichols, stride, tabram, and McKenzie as ripper victims?

Different circumstances could lead to different outcomes.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi again Sam

conversely, even if this (IMHO absurd) scenario happened, one could view it as, having come home and finding a dead woman at his disposal, the ripper just couldn't help himself, and mutilated her abdomen.

A Ripper who couldn't help himself, even a Ripper who could help himself, would likely have inflicted even more damage on the body. What was to stop him doing so?

It's that, incidentally, not a closed mind on my part, that makes me rule out Bury as JTR.