Joe Barnett's 'wife' Louisa

[JadenCollins]

If Mary was killed at around 9am and Jack then occupied himself with 30 minutes of mutilations beside a large fire, that means he would have left Mary's room at a time when many people would have been out and about on a public holiday. Nothing like walking through a court and then crowded streets with possibly blood-splashed hands and clothing!

When Bond saw Mary's body at 2pm he saw the signs of rigor Morris setting in. He opted for a time of death of between 1am and 2am, Bond believed that she had died five to six hours before he was called to the scene at a quarter to eleven. Neither of these experienced medical men, having seen the body, opted for 9am or later. I know that TOD is an inexact science but surely not that inexact!

I agree on this.

[Penhalion]

If we go along with the idea that MJK was alive and seen in the street before 9am, then she must have been dressed and as proper as she ever got. The body on the bed (which I believe to have been hers) was undressed and wearing only a chemise when it was discovered.

If you say that she got undressed in order to 'entertain' a male visitor then I will point out to you that it is not necessary to disrobe when one is wearing 19th century clothing. Getting dressed and undressed is a bit of a process even for women at her socio-economic level so you probably wouldn't do it for a 'quickie' because it would take longer than the act.

[JadenCollins]

Pat,

Who else would she turn to? Even though they broke up, Joe was the only one she could actually turn to. Of course he would help her, he was still madly in love with her. He was also the first to give his statement. He clearly lied to the police, he knew that wasn't Mary.

But then the question is; why did Mary disappear? Why didn't she tell the truth? Did she get herself in some kind of trouble and had to disappear?

[JadenCollins]

If we go along with the idea that MJK was alive and seen in the street before 9am, then she must have been dressed and as proper as she ever got. The body on the bed (which I believe to have been hers) was undressed and wearing only a chemise when it was discovered.

If you say that she got undressed in order to 'entertain' a male visitor then I will point out to you that it is not necessary to disrobe when one is wearing 19th century clothing. Getting dressed and undressed is a bit of a process even for women at her socio-economic level so you probably wouldn't do it for a 'quickie' because it would take longer than the act.

what IF she actually took the victims clothes and left hers?

[Penhalion]

Okay. Why? There's still the undressing and re-dressing issue. It still takes time. Mary's clothes were found neatly folded in the room. So she took this theoretical other woman's clothing? Because she arrived home (being fully dressed since she was out and about) and found the slaughtered body and decided to put on the dead woman's clothing and leave hers?

If she wasn't in her room that night and some other poor woman was then where was Mary? Walking the streets endlessly on a raw, rainy night when she had a warm, dry bed at home? Why? And who? The only woman known to have shared the room with her (and it was share not use in place of) was alive and well after the murder.

[JadenCollins]

Okay. Why? There's still the undressing and re-dressing issue. It still takes time. Mary's clothes were found neatly folded in the room. So she took this theoretical other woman's clothing? Because she arrived home (being fully dressed since she was out and about) and found the slaughtered body and decided to put on the dead woman's clothing and leave hers?

If she wasn't in her room that night and some other poor woman was then where was Mary? Walking the streets endlessly on a raw, rainy night when she had a warm, dry bed at home? Why? And who? The only woman known to have shared the room with her (and it was share not use in place of) was alive and well after the murder.

First of all it's just my theory, and I'm sorry to disappoint you there, buddy. I wasn't there in 1888 so I have no idea, like I said it's my theory.

Mary could have got into some kind of trouble. From things that I've read, she was clearly scared of someone/something. Why would she stay in her room all alone? She was probably out, in a pub or wandering the streets of Whitechapel. She discovered the body of her guest early in the morning, she's in shock but it's the perfect get away. Knowing everyone will think that she's dead, so she doesn't have to worry about the trouble she got herself in. Leaves her room in a hurry, bumps into Maxwell, later on is seen by a few other people and with a little help, she disappears. And the only person I can think of is, Joe. He wouldn't mind because he was still madly in love with her. Consider his statement as a bunch of lies. He knew it wasn't Mary.

Okay, this got me to another thing. What IF Jack was actually looking for Mary but instead he finds her guest and goes furious, that would explain a lot.

[Penhalion]

First of all it's just my theory, and I'm sorry to disappoint you there, buddy. I wasn't there in 1888 so I have no idea, like I said it's my theory.

Yep, its a theory and the way to test a theory is to ask questions. Just like I'm doing.

From things that I've read, she was clearly scared of someone/something.

If we believe Barnett then she was scared of JtR. As were most of the female residents of Whitechapel at the time.

Why would she stay in her room all alone?

Because it was warm and dry and JtR had only killed women out on the street. Home in her room was much safer than out on the street.

She was probably out, in a pub or wandering the streets of Whitechapel.

Pubs closed at 1am. The night was cold and rainy. JtR was out on the street. There is no reason for a woman with a room and bed to be outdoors all night. Mary Ann Cox who also lived in Miller's Court and was a sex worker described returning to her room several times during the night to get warm especially after is started to rain.

She discovered the body of her guest early in the morning, she's in shock but it's the perfect get away. Knowing everyone will think that she's dead, so she doesn't have to worry about the trouble she got herself in.

First of all, we don't have any indication of needing to get away from anything. Second, we have no indication that there was a guest who had exclusive use of the room. The only other woman associated with the room SHARED it with her and was alive after the murder. Third, if you needed to vanish from Whitechapel it was perfectly easy to do. You simply left. Since indications are that MJK wasn't her real name to begin with, it would have been simple to go to another part of London or even another city and just become a different person.

Leaves her room in a hurry, bumps into Maxwell, later on is seen by a few other people and with a little help, she disappears.

If she's trying to disappear she's doing a bloody rotten job of it! Seen by several people and speaking to them as well?

He (Joe) wouldn't mind because he was still madly in love with her.

Was he? Just because someone still cares for an ex and wants them to be well doesn't mean the same thing as madly in love. And it doesn't mean perjuring themselves in a court which carries some pretty stiff consequences if found out.

Okay, this got me to another thing. What IF Jack was actually looking for Mary but instead he finds her guest and goes furious, that would explain a lot.

Clearly JtR was not reasonable in the normally understood sense of the term, but if he's got the wrong woman (again if you believe he was looking for her all along) why was he so super frustrated this time? If he's looking for her it implies he knows her. If he knows her, why doesn't he know what she looks like? The body in Miller's Court fit her description or it could never have been ID'd, but the other women killed looked nothing like her. MJK was relatively tall over 5'6". The other women were predominantly significantly shorter, barely over 5'. You might mistake an inch or two but mistaking half a foot in height? Not likely. They all had dark hair, MJK was blonde. Even in the dark that's a big difference. The other women were all significantly older than Mary and probably looked even older than their age due to the rough lives they had lived. (Except Polly Nichols who was 44 but looked 10 years younger......which still puts her looking a good 10 years older than MJK).

I'm afraid the idea of killing the other victims because he was looking for MJK and mistook them for her just doesn't hold up when you look at their actual appearance.

[JadenCollins]

1. Well it's not her fault that Maxwell "caught" her. Maxwell was there, going the other way was no option and avoiding her neither

2. Lying is not so bad, people got away with worse things. What consequences? Joe disappeared too after 1888.

2. MJK was 5'7 and she wasn't blonde. And btw I'm 100% sure that she wasn't the only one with that height.

3. I wasn't talking about the other victims. I was talking about Mary. They say she was 25, she might have been older than that, maybe in her 30s, and I know she's way younger than the others. But what does that have to do with her being a Jack The Ripper victim?

[JadenCollins]

1. You misinterpreted everything I wrote.
2. I suggest you get your facts straight about MJK.
3. Let me guess, your theory is clearly the opposite of mine, but that's no reason to break my theory off.

[Penhalion]

1. Well it's not her fault that Maxwell "caught" her. Maxwell was there, going the other way was no option and avoiding her neither.

But she didn't appear to be trying to avoid her either- if it WAS MJK and it was on THAT day. But you specifically mentioned 'other people' seeing her so she was clearly very bad at avoiding people who knew her.

2. Lying is not so bad, people got away with worse things. What consequences? Joe disappeared too after 1888.

Lying at a hearing, trial, or any other legal proceeding is perjury and it is serious. The Perjury Act 1728 was in effect at the time of JtR. Section 2 provided that perjury and subornation of perjury were punishable with imprisonment for a term not exceeding seven years.

And Joe did fade from the radar for awhile probably because he was basically a nobody who didn't do anything interesting. He didn't disappear he still shows up in a few records. He died at the age of 68 in November 1926 at 106 Red Lion Street, Shadwell, London.

2.b MJK was 5'7 and she wasn't blonde. And btw I'm 100% sure that she wasn't the only one with that height.

Yes, I said 'over 5'6" which I believe includes 5'7". Did you read the description of her here on Casebook? "Mary Jane Kelly was approximately 25 years old at the time of her death which would place her birth around 1863. She was 5' 7" tall and stout. She had blonde hair, blue eyes and a fair complexion. "Said to have been possessed of considerable personal attractions." (McNaughten)". Other victims include Polly Nichols:5'2" tall; brown eyes; dark complexion; brown hair turning grey. Annie Chapman: 5' tall, 47 years old at time of death, Pallid complexion, Blue eyes, Dark brown wavy hair. Elizabeth Stride: 45 years old, pale complexion, light gray eyes and had curly dark brown hair. All the teeth in her lower left jaw were missing and she stood five foot five inches tall. (Tallest of the victims other than MJK but often not counted as a JtR victim) Katherine Eddowes: 5 feet tall, has hazel eyes and dark auburn hair. Even the non-canonicals are significantly shorter than MJK- Tabram was described as a plump middle-aged woman, about 5'3" tall, dark hair and complexion.

I wasn't talking about the other victims. I was talking about Mary. They say she was 25, she might have been older than that, maybe in her 30s, and I know she's way younger than the others. But what does that have to do with her being a Jack The Ripper victim?

You postulated that JtR was enraged by finding someone other than MJK in her room and so venting his frustration at not finding his intended victim on the corpse. This implies that he was looking for her specifically. That implies he knew her in some way. Why would he be looking for her specifically? Were his other kills just random and THIS one was specific? Had he been looking for MJK all along? If so then he had no idea what she looked like given the wildly different appearance she had from the other victims.

Honestly, we know very little about MJK, even the name is probably different. She could have been 20 or 25 or 30. If you get much past 30 she is probably not going to be believable as a 20-25 year old, but really who knows? The point is she LOOKED like she could have been 25 and the other victims most emphatically looked older by at least a decade.

The other victims are all significantly older, significantly shorter (one exception and even she is a couple of inches shorter), with dark hair. How does that support JtR seeking out MJK unless each woman was either completely opportunistic and random or each woman was sought out for an individual, specific reason. I'd be more inclined to believe he mistook Polly for Annie or Katherine than he mistook MJK for any of the others.

[Penhalion]

Jaden- I don't actually have a theory. I don't know what happened or who did it. I'm still trying to figure it out.

I didn't misinterpret. I quoted you exactly and asked you to respond to specific questions related to those quotes.

I have my facts straight on MJK. I just have problems with people who mistake supposition and fantasy for facts. There are darn few solid facts on MJK. Name? Age? Place of Origin? All mysteries. But her physical appearance is not a mystery. It is documented.

[JadenCollins]

Jaden- I don't actually have a theory. I don't know what happened or who did it. I'm still trying to figure it out.

I didn't misinterpret. I quoted you exactly and asked you to respond to specific questions related to those quotes.

I have my facts straight on MJK. I just have problems with people who mistake supposition and fantasy for facts. There are darn few solid facts on MJK. Name? Age? Place of Origin? All mysteries. But her physical appearance is not a mystery. It is documented.

Tbh, you actually did misinterprete the last part about JTR finding her guest.

It's not some fantasy, it can actual be true, who knows?

And as far as I know, she was ginger.

There's no actual proof of her birthplace or whatsoever.

Her whole life is a mystery.

[MysterySinger]

Can we compare notes on Joseph Barnett please?

I have him born 25th May 1858 in Whitechapel to John and Catherine. He had brothers Dennis, Daniel and John and sister Catherine. He is found in the 1861, 1871, 1881 and 1911 censuses. He died on 29th November 1926 in Stepney. Less certain is that he married Agnes Louisa Rowe in 1887 (because of the date and his relationship with MJK). Is any of this obviously wrong? Where else does he pop up?

[Harry D]

If Mary was killed at around 9am and Jack then occupied himself with 30 minutes of mutilations beside a large fire, that means he would have left Mary's room at a time when many people would have been out and about on a public holiday. Nothing like walking through a court and then crowded streets with possibly blood-splashed hands and clothing!

Easy. The killer could've wiped his hands on some of Mary Kelly's clothing after he had finished and thrown it in the grate with the rest, then donned an overcoat to cover up any bloodstains on his own clothing.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
As Harry says.clean himself up. and mingle with the crowds,no great problem, if luck was with you.
Richard.