which Barnett was it.

[lynn cates]

Sociopaths R Us

Hello Heinrich. Thanks.

"The sociopathic killer hardly saw himself in the role of a contestant on Beat the Clock with a plan of action to quickly remove each organ and membrane to use in decorating the bedside table in the least amount of time during mid-morning on a public holiday."

How do we know that MJK's killer was a sociopath? How do we know his motives?

"The story is implausible on the face of it."

I find most of the theorising on MJK implausible--most of all, that she succumbed to a serial killer.

"None of the three stories lend support to any other and are unworthy of credence in the absence of corroboration."

Well, they DO corroborate one another in that each has MJK up and about after sunup. As I say, make of that what you will.

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi Heinrich,
I am not that proud of my younger days, many a time have I had a night-times drinking, followed in the morning by my previous nights dinner[ which included fish and chips] then it was off to the pub with the lads at lunchtime...these things happen.
But I am glad to say I never got murdered..
Witnesses such as Maxwell, and Mr Lewis, simply cannot be cast aside, because they don't sound plausible, for our so called ''Logical '' minds,
As I have previously said, this thread was about the sighting by Lewis on the Thursday night, which had her drinking with Dan?, and asking why he was not more prominent in investigations?
Regards Richard.

[Heinrich]

Hello Heinrich. Thanks. All I can say is that Gareth was one of our finest ripper students. He most likely checked these times with medical people. (What is face validity?)

Face validity refers to the truth of a claim based on the likelihood of it being true. It is unlikely that Mary Kelly would have been boozing it up at 10 p.m. then had fish and potato breakfast at 6 a.m. and was having a jar again at 10 a.m. only to be mutilated beyond recognition before the discovery at the murder scene in her dwelling minutes later. The sociopathic killer hardly saw himself in the role of a contestant on Beat the Clock with a plan of action to quickly remove each organ and membrane to use in decorating the bedside table in the least amount of time during mid-morning on a public holiday. The story is implausible on the face of it.

I agree about Lewis' story; however, there were no fewer than 3 stories agreeing that MJK was alive after sunup. Make of that what you will.

None of the three stories lend support to any other and are unworthy of credence in the absence of corroboration.

[lynn cates]

moot?

Hello Sally. I would not say "moot." Frequently, the time factor has been offered to justify ruling out a morning murder. Gareth's work shows that one cannot rule that out on the basis of time of mutilation alone.

Fantasies? What fantasies would these be then?

Cheers.
LC

[Sally]

Time...

Estimates as to how long it took to complete to the satisfaction of the killer the butchery (butcher or not) of Kelly are moot, I think,

Because there is no way of knowing whether how long it could have taken is how long it did take, or even close to it.

Yes, ok, the Ripper worked quickly - so doubtless he could. But did he want to when it came to Kelly? Did he have to? Perhaps not.

Perhaps that was the point of killing inside a private space - different risk (not sure whether greater, necessarily) but a great payoff in terms of time. He had the time in that room. I'd expect him to use it to fulfil his fantasies - and it looks as though that's what he did.

[lynn cates]

continuity

Hello Caroline. I shall indeed spare you. But . . .

"no knifeless throttling, . . . he did this like he was prepared for everyone to connect the deed to the previous Whitechapel unfortunate throat cuttings."

But Polly and Annie were both, beyond doubt, throttled first. The others MAY have been, but the overt marks are lacking. If one really wanted to show continuity, one would need to strangle first and leave bruises. So IF a copy, THEN a poor one.

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

He 'went Ripper fashion' with the first sweep of his fit-and-sharpened-for-the-purpose knife.

No bashing on the head, no knifeless throttling, no pillow over the face - he did this like he was prepared for everyone to connect the deed to the previous Whitechapel unfortunate throat cuttings.

The ripper himself was not concerned with doing a fair copy of what he'd done before. There was a POOR copyist at every turn for those who were expecting the same indignities and injuries to be inflicted on victims of the same hand.

But even the poorest copyist would have known to take a kidney with him, if not the uterus, and if Stride was considered one of the series, he had no need to venture much beyond the trademark throat cutting. Doing it indoors was a departure, and a risky one for any of Mary's closer associates to choose. A quick slash here and there before scarpering would have sufficed for anyone but the ripper. But this inside job was a truly golden opportunity for him alone to paint the town red for Lord Mayor's Day.

Has any other serial killer in history been upstaged like this by a poor pretender?

And yeah, I know what's coming, so spare us. ["What serial killer?" ]

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

Gareth

Hello Heinrich. Thanks. All I can say is that Gareth was one of our finest ripper students. He most likely checked these times with medical people. (What is face validity?)

I agree about Lewis' story; however, there were no fewer than 3 stories agreeing that MJK was alive after sunup. Make of that what you will.

Cheers.
LC

[Heinrich]

Hello Heinrich. Thanks.

Here is the link, post #2. Give it a go!

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=3775

I am not an expert in maniacal butchery, Lynn, but only 16 minutes to do all the damage subjected by Mary Kelly lacks face validity.

The thread is, I regret to state, yet another red herring because the claim of Maurice Lewis to have seen Mary Kelly the night of the murder in a pub and then again seeing her minutes before her mutilated body was discovered smacks of idle yarn-spinning. More to the point, there is no corroboration of Lewis' fanciful accounts.

[lynn cates]

lover

Hello Richard. Thanks. If MJK was a copycat, someone was a POOR copyist.

"possibly being someone very close to the victim, rather than be a suspect by the police, he went Ripper fashion."

I can live with this. A former lover--especially one who later felt betrayed--would fit the bill. That is why I cannot take Fleming off the table.

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi Mike,
If nothing else this thread may get people asking .
''How long would the millers court murder take''?
Rather then attempt to do a Sam Flynn [ which was excellent] how about taking Maurice Lewis's word for it, and have the murder take place shortly after 10am.
It would then mean around 30 minutes, about 6x longer then Eddowes,
I would say that's about right.
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Lynn,
That is the 64 thousand dollar question...
The way I see it is, if the killer was the same, then I ask myself a question?
Why did he change his MO?
He killed indoors..
Was it because he was worried about getting caught in the act , because of the extra police, and public awareness, or was it because he had accosted Kelly in daylight,and could not commit his normal habit, of darkness, and escape patterns?
To kill in a room , with only one escape route, without knowing if he would be disturbed, was far worse then Hanbury street, where the fences would allow an alternative, from it's passage way.
If Kelly was not killed by the Ripper, and was indeed a cunning copycat, again I must ask myself a question?
What reason to copy the murderers mutilation methods.
If killed by a client out of disagreement, why not a normal kill, strangle,or cut throat. why go the Ripper way.
The answer I get, is the Mary's killer was not intending to kill her , but once the act was done, and possibly being someone very close to the victim, rather then be a suspect by the police, he went Ripper fashion.
I get the impression that her killer was used to Millers court, and its habits, and that room was not alien to him.
So if this murder was not the same as Eddowes , that is one explanation.
However lets go the obvious way, she was killed by Jack, and later then it is normally considered,
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

time

Hello Richard. Thanks. I, too, think the event may not have taken so long as many imagine.

"We should not forget our Jack worked very rapid, and he hardly hung around at Mitre square on the 30TH?"

Of course, this assumes that both assassins were the same.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

I almost get the impression many have, the killer, lighting a fire, making tea, and toast , during a long leisurely blood bath.
I do not subscribe to that, and I agree with Sam Flynn's interpretation.
Regards Richard.

Richard,

How bout something inbetween breakneck pace and a weekend in the Hamptons? The butchering that was done in that room, combined with the initial attack, killing, repositioning or placing upon the bed, the stoking of a fire, the navigation of a light source into a place where he could see what he wanted to do, and the removal of a heart and stacking of meat on a table; all this took more than 10 minutes. No doubt of that. If the man was a butcher by profession and absolutely used to cutting meat quickly and removal of organs and didn't need a fire and all was done with no extraneous actions. 10 minutes might be possible.

Mike

[richardnunweek]

Hello Lynn,
For argument sake, lets say that Mr Lewis saw Kelly around 10am on the 9TH, in Ringers,
Around ten would be most likely , not precise,It could be 950-1010am, if the former, both Mary and a man[ maybe Maxwell's market porter] could have been back in her room by 1005am, and her killer out and gone by 1035am, leaving a full ten minutes [ or so] before Bowyers visit.
We should not forget our Jack worked very rapid, and he hardly hung around at Mitre square on the 30TH?.
I have never understood, why so many people have entertained the thought that the Ripper made himself at home in room13, he would have been in a frenzy, desperate to achieve his aim ,and get the hell out of there.
I almost get the impression many have, the killer, lighting a fire, making tea, and toast , during a long leisurely blood bath.
I do not subscribe to that, and I agree with Sam Flynn's interpretation.
Regards Richard.