which Barnett was it.

[lynn cates]

London Bridge is . . .

Hello Richard. Can't disagree.

For my part, I would like to know more about John Fleming who was blown up under London Bridge. So far, not a trace.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

speech

Hello Heinrich.

""Ordinary" people do not speak strangely"

Well, I consider myself quite ordinary. Someday, perhaps we can share a cuppa and then you may confirm the other part of your thesis--or disconfirm it. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi Lynn,
Fleming has to be the number one suspect in 2012, but only.. if it can be positively proven, that the man calling himself James Evans, is Kelly's ex lover, the other Joe she was allegedly ''Fond of''.
We cannot assume that 6'7'' Fleming was just that, it just is not plausible, maybe the height was wrong , but the weight 164lbs in 1888, would be overweight for a five foot seven Fleming, although that may have given him a short stocky look, hence the broad shouldered appearance.
It would seem too coincidental for another Joe to have been in her life, apart from Barnett, and Fleming, although not impossible.
We appear to have the jealous scenario perfectly in place, the kind hearted Barnett, the dis-satisfied Kelly, and the jealous other Joe?, who ill -used her because of her refusal to get rid of Barnett.
But why did Mary not allow admirer Joe,back in her life after the 30TH[ when Barnett left] she obviously needed a meal ticket, or was she beginning to worry about admirer Joe's behaviour?
Was this the last straw for him, even with Barnett out of the way, she still kept a distance.
Pure speculation, however if Fleming is to be a viable suspect, we have to lay it on the table [ excuse the pun]
Regards Richard.

[Heinrich]

...
Pure speculation, I'm afraid - good try - but not a word of it can be proven; nor is it suggested by the evidence.

The evidence supports everything I stated, Sally.

Joe Barnett wasn't a dosser. He had a job. Demonstrably, he had a job for the majority of his adult life. He wasn't one of the idle poor; he was one of the working poor. Fact. Not my opinion. Fact. His siblings were the same, respectable, working people.

You are wrong; he had been fired from his porter's job for pilfering.

You have no evidence therefore that he was 'freeloading' on a 'local prostitute' - because there isn't any. All the evidence is in fact contrary to your position.

After he was sacked, Mary Kelly had to return to active prostitution and hers was the only income in their shared home, Mary's rented room.

'Stalking' her? Evidence please. And he left their home because she had gone back to prostitution (clue - this means that she wasn't working as a prostitute when they were together and he had a job because he was supporting them both)

He admitted that in the 10 days he had been dossing elsewhere, he continued to hang around 13 Miller's Court including the night of the murder.

As for his 'odd' speech - Ah well, that proves it then. Killer.
That isn't a fact, Heinrich. Sorry to have to break it to you, but it isn't. It's the opinion of an author who wanted Barnett to be the Ripper.

"Ordinary" people do not speak strangely and echolalia is associated with psychopathology.

[lynn cates]

Fleming

Hello Richard.

"my suspicions have dulled , especially when Fleming/Flemming, has apparently better credentials."

Now you're talking.

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
There was once a time , when Joe Barnett was the ''Number one suspect'' in my eyes, I even started a thread under that heading many moons ago, which was widely debated, I started co-writing a book with Lea, which I opted out of , and was delighted when she published her book on Barnett.
My suspicions go way back to the early-mid 1970s, and I even sent a lengthy article to the News of the world[ which was rejected] and I corresponded with Colin Wilson for some time, and it was during that time that the fictional book ''The Michaelmas girls'' by John Brooks Barry was published, indeed Colin Wilson remarked to me that ''great minds think alike'', as a lot of my theory was also Mr Barry'.
So I go back a long way with the mystery of Mary Kelly , and her common in law Joseph Barnett.

I will admit that a lot of my initial suspicions were fuelled by the [alleged] grave spitting', and I still have not ruled that out..
However as the years have rolled on, and books about Barnett have come and gone, my suspicions have dulled , especially when Fleming/Flemming, has apparently better credentials .
I still have Barnett in the mix, along with Fleming, and even Dan Barnett[ who has never been in the frame?] and what about the man called Lawrence, who used to call on her, not to mention McCarthy's tale of the man he ejected from the court for demanding Kelly gave his property back?
All of these, and more from her past could be responsible...and failing that the last [ alleged ] person Mary was seen with..The middle aged market porter.
The choice is yours?
Regards Richard.

[Rubyretro]

Heinrich -I will second Sally's post.

Stop obsessively stalking Joe Barnett...I'd fear for his life, if he wasn't already dead.

[Sally]

There is nothing "ordinary" about a dosser who wanted to freeload on a local prostitute while attempting to control her movements and associations and who resorted to stalking her after many arguments and leaving her home. He had odd echolalia speech and finally butchered the unfortunate victim.

Great character assassination Heinrich! You know, for a minute there, I thought you were talking about somebody else...

Pure speculation, I'm afraid - good try - but not a word of it can be proven; nor is it suggested by the evidence.

Joe Barnett wasn't a dosser. He had a job. Demonstrably, he had a job for the majority of his adult life. He wasn't one of the idle poor; he was one of the working poor. Fact. Not my opinion. Fact. His siblings were the same, respectable, working people.

You have no evidence therefore that he was 'freeloading' on a 'local prostitute' - because there isn't any. All the evidence is in fact contrary to your position.

'Stalking' her? Evidence please. And he left their home because she had gone back to prostitution (clue - this means that she wasn't working as a prostitute when they were together and he had a job because he was supporting them both)

As for his 'odd' speech - Ah well, that proves it then. Killer.

That isn't a fact, Heinrich. Sorry to have to break it to you, but it isn't. It's the opinion of an author who wanted Barnett to be the Ripper. It is just as plausible - and probably more likely - that his 'speech impediment' was nothing more than nerves - I don't suppose it was very much fun for an innocent man to find that his long term girlfriend had been butchered; for all sorts of reasons. It must have been a terrible shock.

You're barking up the wrong tree Heinrich.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Lynn,
For argument sake, lets say that Mr Lewis saw Kelly around 10am on the 9TH, in Ringers,
Around ten would be most likely , not precise,It could be 950-1010am, if the former, both Mary and a man[ maybe Maxwell's market porter] could have been back in her room by 1005am, and her killer out and gone by 1035am, leaving a full ten minutes [ or so] before Bowyers visit.
We should not forget our Jack worked very rapid, and he hardly hung around at Mitre square on the 30TH?.
I have never understood, why so many people have entertained the thought that the Ripper made himself at home in room13, he would have been in a frenzy, desperate to achieve his aim ,and get the hell out of there.
I almost get the impression many have, the killer, lighting a fire, making tea, and toast , during a long leisurely blood bath.
I do not subscribe to that, and I agree with Sam Flynn's interpretation.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard

I have never understood, why so many people have entertained the thought that the Ripper made himself at home in room13,

Because he could.

[Cogidubnus]

There is nothing "ordinary" about a dosser who wanted to freeload on a local prostitute while attempting to control her movements and associations and who resorted to stalking her after many arguments and leaving her home. He had odd echolalia speech and finally butchered the unfortunate victim.

I agree...so we're looking for an obsessive repetitive pimp with controlling homicidal tendencies and no sat-nav...shouldn't be that difficult to find one, they're pretty common...

[lynn cates]

observations

Hello Heinrich. Thanks.

"Characteristic of sociopathy is a lack of concern for others, unable to be empathic or remorseful."

Hmm, I worked for these chaps when I was a dustman. (heh-heh)

"Mary Kelly was made an object of jealous rage. . . "

Rage? Perhaps. Jealous? Don't know. Possible.

" . . . and her mutilation was an attempt to rob her of even the appearance of humanity."

Or to keep her from being recognised. Or to obliterate her. Or . . .

Cheers.
LC

[Heinrich]

Uh Oh. There goes Bad Joe Barnett off the suspect list. He was just another ordinary Joe after all...

There is nothing "ordinary" about a dosser who wanted to freeload on a local prostitute while attempting to control her movements and associations and who resorted to stalking her after many arguments and leaving her home. He had odd echolalia speech and finally butchered the unfortunate victim.

"The excess of mutilation is characteristic of a man without an ounce of normalcy."

Completely agree. But can one be abnormal and yet not sociopathic?

Characteristic of sociopathy is a lack of concern for others, unable to be empathic or remorseful. Mary Kelly was made an object of jealous rage and her mutilation was an attempt to rob her of even the appearance of humanity. The creep got away with murder.

[lynn cates]

normalcy

Hello Heinrich. Thanks.

"The excess of mutilation is characteristic of a man without an ounce of normalcy."

Completely agree. But can one be abnormal and yet not sociopathic?

Cheers.
LC

[Sally]

The excess of mutilation is characteristic of a man without an ounce of normalcy.

Uh Oh. There goes Bad Joe Barnett off the suspect list. He was just another ordinary Joe after all...

[Heinrich]

...
As I have previously said, this thread was about the sighting by Lewis on the Thursday night, which had her drinking with Dan?, and asking why he was not more prominent in investigations?
Regards Richard.

The problem for you, Richard, is that no one believes Lewis.

How do we know that MJK's killer was a sociopath? How do we know his motives?

The excess of mutilation is characteristic of a man without an ounce of normalcy.

I find most of the theorising on MJK implausible--most of all, that she succumbed to a serial killer.

So do I.

Well, they DO corroborate one another in that each has MJK up and about after sunup. As I say, make of that what you will.

Little, if anything, should be made of the sightings on the morning after Mary Kelly was murdered as they do not agree on location or time.