the key

[Robert]

I think what Heinrich means is, Barnett admits to being the last murderer seen with Kelly on the night of her murder.

Things look pretty black for Barnett!

[curious]

Oh ?


Since I disagree with you, I'd be quite worried about you if I thought that you lived around the corner from me...

I've thought this for some time now, myself.

And you're wasting your energy trying to have this discussion with him – He just digs his heels in deeper.

[Rubyretro]

Joseph Barnett admits to being the last person seen in Mary Kelly company on the night of her murder.

Oh ?
I thought that Blotchy was definitely the last man known to have been in her company?
Hutchinson says that he spoke to her..he might or might not have done.
Astrakhan Man -were he to have existed- would be the candidate for 'last person' seen in her company on the night of her death.

I'm not even counting the 'market trader' mooted as a suspect
by people like Richard who believe that she died the next morning.

By the way sometimes I'd love to know more about the real people behind these posts on Casebook : You come over over to me as someone far more judgemental and inflexible -dare I say "controlling" ?- than Joe Barnett. You don't seem to have much empathy when considering the lives of these real -if long dead- human beings. And no sense of humour.

I mention "controlling" because you seem to object to Joe having any 'right' to tell Mary what he wanted from their relationship, and no rights to part on amicable terms.

Since I disagree with you, I'd be quite worried about you if I thought that you lived around the corner from me...

[Heinrich]

I think "controlling" is something very different from "I don't want your scuzzy hooker friends in my house, Mary, and I also don't want you selling your body to other men." ...

Calling Mary Kelly and her friends "scuzzy hooker friends" are your words, Ausgirl, and might well correlate Joseph Barnett's attitude.

....
If you had a girlfriend that you lived with, loved, and wished to marry, don't you think that you'd object if she chose to consort with hookers and to prostitute herself?

Not had I met her as one of her customers in the first place, Archaic.

I think it's remarkable that Joe loved Mary enough to forgive her rather sordid past. How many other men would do so?

I was never appropriate for Joseph Barnett to be so judgmental about Mary Kelly nor did she need his forgiveness for the choices she made.

I also think it's perfectly reasonable of him to wish that Mary would straighten out and show some self-respect rather than fall back into prostitution and the low lifestyle that went with it.

It would have been more fitting for him to get his own life in order having got himself sacked, losing his porter's license and finding himself broke.

Yet after she did fall back into it, Joe still cared enough to come round to check on her and to give her money if he could.

According to Joseph Barnett himself, he did not visit Mary Kelly on the night of her murder to give her money. He had something else on his mind.

How many men would show such devotion under the circumstances?

But for Joseph Barnett's attention, Mary Kelly might have been spared a most brutal fate.

Would you be less suspicious of Joe if he didn't care whether Mary went out whoring or not? If your answer is Yes, then that makes absolutely no sense to me.

There is no evidence to suggest that Joseph Barnett cherished Mary Kelly in the way you imagine, Archaic.

Hmmm....so Barnett has a blazing row with Kelly, quits his lodgings, continues to visit her from time to time, including the last evening of her life, then goes back to his new lodgings, plays cards, and then goes back to Miller's Court in the middle of the night and butchers her. I wonder why his mood suddenly changed?

Joseph Barnett admits to being the last person seen in Mary Kelly company on the night of her murder. It is probable he killed her before returning to his own lodging to play cards or sleep or whatever. It is not necessary to assume Joseph Barnett changed his mood. For some time he had been quarreling with Mary Kelly about her friends and lifestyle. As far as his mood went, there was never a time when he did not want to possess her entirely for himself.

[Rubyretro]

maybe he snap-ped ?

[Fisherman]

...or did it happen when she asked him "Can Asta bunk here tonight?"

The best,
Fisherman
spent out

[Fisherman]

Are you saying that he used a poker, Robert ...?

The best,
Fisherman

[Robert]

Hmmm....so Barnett has a blazing row with Kelly, quits his lodgings, continues to visit her from time to time, including the last evening of her life, then goes back to his new lodgings, plays cards, and then goes back to Miller's Court in the middle of the night and butchers her. I wonder why his mood suddenly changed?

Maybe he lost at cards.

[Archaic]

Put Yourself In Joe Barnett's Shoes

Hello Heinrich. May I ask you a question?

> If you had a girlfriend that you lived with, loved, and wished to marry, don't you think that you'd object if she chose to consort with hookers and to prostitute herself?

I think it's remarkable that Joe loved Mary enough to forgive her rather sordid past. How many other men would do so?

I also think it's perfectly reasonable of him to wish that Mary would straighten out and show some self-respect rather than fall back into prostitution and the low lifestyle that went with it. Yet after she did fall back into it, Joe still cared enough to come round to check on her and to give her money if he could. How many men would show such devotion under the circumstances?

Would you be less suspicious of Joe if he didn't care whether Mary went out whoring or not? If your answer is Yes, then that makes absolutely no sense to me.

I view Joe Barnett as another of the Ripper's tragic victims, and I feel great compassion for him. Joe
cared about Mary and was right to draw the line he did, yet must have blamed himself for the rest of his life for being unable to save her from the most horrific death imaginable. Can you imagine how he must have felt?

Best regards,
Archaic

[Ausgirl]

I think "controlling" is something very different from "I don't want your scuzzy hooker friends in my house, Mary, and I also don't want you selling your body to other men."

"Straighten up or I'll leave" sounds more like self-respect than psychopathy.

Just saying.

[Heinrich]

Heinrich -Fisherman suggested that the evidence that points to Barnett and Kelly having a successful and loving partnership is just as strong as the evidence that they quarrled constantly, and things needn't be seen as black and white...and I totally agree with him.

I am crushed, Rubyretro.

-there are stories that Joe sat and read to her (a victorian entertainment), which seem cosy and domestic.

Nothing very cosy about reading all the details of the Whitechapel murders from the penny dreadfuls.

Why do you think that Joe using his earnings as a market porter to keep Mary off the streets is "controlling" ?

This is not what I think; rather, it was Joseph Barnett's prohibition on Mary Kelly from having her own friends and going on the streets when he was out of a job and unable to give her money that was his controlling behavior.

It's more likely that she told him that she didn't want to be a prostitute but had no other choice, and he felt that they had a 'connection' and he would rescue her.
I don't see how that vision of the relationship is any less true than yours.

Ever consider becoming a novelist, Rubyretro?

[Rubyretro]

Heinrich -Fisherman suggested that the evidence that points to Barnett and Kelly having a successful and loving partnership is just as strong as the evidence that they quarrled constantly, and things needn't be seen as black and white...and I totally agree with him.

I think that (off the top of my head) :
-most of Mary's biography came from Barnett, and it included tales of how she was led into prostitution (by a cousin ?) and how she went to France
as a prostitute. It seems that, whether or not she embroidered the details, she could talk about the person she was honestly to Joe
She obviously didn't feel so frightened of him that she invented a story about being an innocent virgin, raped and ruined and forced into prostitution against her will by some evil man.

-there are stories that Joe sat and read to her (a victorian entertainment),
which seem cosy and domestic.

There is also an independant statement that Mary regretted her lifestyle and wished that she was 'back home' and not a poor whore. It might very well be the story that she told Joe when she met him -it was no doubt true, when she thought about herself lucidly.

Why do you think that Joe using his earnings as a market porter to keep Mary off the streets is "controlling" ? It's more likely that she told him that she
didn't want to be a prostitute but had no other choice, and he felt that they had a 'connection' and he would rescue her.

I don't see how that vision of the relationship is any less true than yours.

[Fisherman]

Heinrich:

"There is no need for equivication when the evidence against Joseph barnett is so damning."

To think, Heinrich, that you have been joking all along, and I did not realize it until now! Good one

The best,
Fisherman

[Heinrich]

....
I think it has been pointed out that there is no evidence that Mary was
ever beaten by Joe.

Unless slitting her throat and eviscerating her corpse is something else.

I agree that the conditions in which the couple lived are ones which often lead to domestic violence -but certainly not the complete butchery which Mary was subjected to.

Indeed, the treatment meeted-out to poor Mary Kelly by Joseph Barnett was exceptional.

It probably wasn't a realistic expectation [that Joseph Barnett could persuade Mary Kelly to give-up her livelihood on his say-so]...

It certainly wasn't, Rubyretro.

I must say that it is terribly belittling of Mary and Joe's relationship to write "shacked up" in a very patronizing way.

I wrote this way about Joseph Barnett because that is what he did.

....
"Barnett admitted that they argued ..."
Yes, he did. But I donīt think he claimed that they did so "constantly". Do you think he did?

Yes, more or less.

"You might choose to see this as a loving and successful partnership but that would not fit the evidence."
It would fit the evidence every bit as well as your claim that the couple quarrelled "constantly" at any rate, Heinrich!

Hardly.

But why not opt for the solution to the problem that is written all over the place - they stayed together because they liked each other, they sometimes drank and quarrelled, but they made up afterwards and stayed on together.

They didn't stay together; Joseph Barnett left 13 Miller's Court 10 days before the body of Mary Kelly was discovered.

Maybe it was not a case of totally black or totally white, Heinrich?

There is no need for equivication when the evidence against Joseph barnett is so damning.

And maybe that is why I suggest that you should not try and present the relationship to other posters as one of "constant" quarrelling, when there is not any support for such a claim.

My claim is supported by all the evidence with nothing contradictory.

People may think that you are biased on all of this, you see.

The evidence points to the guilt of Joseph Barnett more than anyone else and I accept that.

[Fisherman]

Heinrich:

"Barnett admitted that they argued ..."

Yes, he did. But I donīt think he claimed that they did so "constantly". Do you think he did?

"You might choose to see this as a loving and successful partnership but that would not fit the evidence."

It would fit the evidence every bit as well as your claim that the couple quarrelled "constantly" at any rate, Heinrich!
But why not opt for the solution to the problem that is written all over the place - they stayed together because they liked each other, they sometimes drank and quarrelled, but they made up afterwards and stayed on together.

Maybe it was not a case of totally black or totally white, Heinrich? And maybe that is why I suggest that you should not try and present the relationship to other posters as one of "constant" quarrelling, when there is not any support for such a claim.

People may think that you are biased on all of this, you see. And you would not want that, would you?

The best,
Fisherman