the key

[Rubyretro]

Most likely, Joseph Barnett left 13 Miller's Court because Mary Kelly refused to comply with his manipulative demands that she change her ways and do as he ordered. He himself gave this reason for their break-up.

Heinrich -just out of curiosity, if your partner was getting drunk, engaging
in prostitution, and inviting other prostitutes to sleep in your bedroom, would you be happy about this ?

If you weren't happy with the situation wouldn't you say so ?

[Ben]

So Ben you do think that 13 Miller's Court was a suitable location to stalk a potential victim?

Yes, I do, Lechmere. Provided you were in a "suitable location" to monitor the comings and goings of the occupants of Miller's Court, you were unlikely to go too far wrong. I have no idea where you're getting "everyone coming in" from. Who would "everyone" refer to in this case? The precious few people who were passing through the arch in the small hours of a miserable night? We're hardly talking hoards of potential stalker-spotters here.

it was also outside a very big and busy lodging house

Exactly, and what better cover than that? To the untrained eye, he could easily have passed for one of the houses's many lodgers skulking outside.

[Heinrich]

Heinrich,
Instead of using the word 'manipulative' which of course is something you've added, would you say that he was unhappy that his girlfriend was engaging in prostitution again and that's why he left?

By attempting to control Mary Kelly, Joseph Barnett was being manipulative. Not only was he unhappy that she was consorting with prostitutes and resorting to prostitution herself, he was clearly furious about this, enough to do her in when she did not comply with his wishes even after he left her (as he claims) or when she had given him his running orders.

[The Good Michael]

Heinrich,

Instead of using the word 'manipulative' which of course is something you've added, would you say that he was unhappy that his girlfriend was engaging in prostitution again and that's why he left?

Mike

[Heinrich]

Heinrich,
We know you think Barnett lied, but let's say he didn't and it was he who left Kelly, what would be good enough reasons for him to leave her?
Mike

Most likely, Joseph Barnett left 13 Miller's Court because Mary Kelly refused to comply with his manipulative demands that she change her ways and do as he ordered. He himself gave this reason for their break-up.

[Fisherman]

Ben:

"Why garments, plural? "

Bacause more garments would be more effective to quench the fire.

"Heads I win, tails you lose, basically!"

So what´s new, Ben?

The best,

Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

Heinrich,

We know you think Barnett lied, but let's say he didn't and it was he who left Kelly, what would be good enough reasons for him to leave her?

Mike

[Heinrich]

....
Your theory would stand up better if it had been Mary who dumped Joe -but it was He who moved out, and He who had a problem with her lifestyle.

This is Joseph Barnett's version and it lacks credibility.
He had had several arguments with Mary Kelly about her lifestyle and he had given her an ultimatum to change. She refused his attempts to stop her having her own friends and being a prostitute. Despite his allegation that they separated on good terms, my point is that he never did leave her, only moving out and continuing to hang around. The night of her murder was clearly in the context of this tumultuous relationship with the controlling Joseph Barnett.

[Lechmere]

So Ben you do think that 13 Miller's Court was a suitable location to stalk a potential victim? Even though it was down a side court with no way out and a suitable vantage point with a view down the court could only be gained from one location - directly opposite - where everyone coming in and out would see the stalker straight away and it was also outside a very big and busy lodging house, so again people would be likely to see the stalker?

Were I a murderous stalker (and I hasten to add that I'm not) and I lived just down the road, and was supposedly known by the target, then I am sure I would select a more discrete location.

[Rubyretro]

Joseph Barnett was acting something like a stalker inasmuch as he continued to visit Mary Kelly in her dwelling despite claiming that he had left her because of her company-keeping and intention to continue prostitution. He just would not leave her alone but unlike a stranger who stalks, he could enter 13 Miller's Court whenever he wished despite the lost key.

Heinrich -a stalker is someone who continues with their attention towards someone who makes it clear that they want to be left alone.

You have no way of knowing that Mary didn't welcome Joe.

Your theory would stand up better if it had been Mary who dumped Joe -but it was He who moved out, and He who had a problem with her lifestyle.

There is nothing to suggest that Mary had to get McCarthy, or some strong
armed friends, to bodily throw out Joe from Miller's Court and so the inference is that he willingly left .

There are often grey areas in the immediate time after the breakdown of a relationship -particularly where the person who is left is very upset, and the person doing the leaving feels guilty about abandonning someone that they still care about but can't be with anymore.

How do you know that wasn't the case here ?

Personally, I can't see any reason at all to see Joe as a 'stalker'. Certainly, he knew how to get into her room, but there are 4 clear ways that the killer could have accessed the room :
-via the window
-via the unlocked door
-Mary letting the killer in herself
-using the key (having stolen it at a much earlier date).

On balance that does suggest that she did have an aquaintanceship with her killer, or he stalked her...but in no way does it narrow things to Joe. Given the number of punters she must have had, or men she met in the pub, the field is wide open regarding entry to the room; It's a detail, that's all.

P.S I don't need to add that I think that Wideawake Man (and/or) Hutchinson apparently surveilling the room just prior to the murder are/is very much more suspicious than Joe Barnett coming round openly.

[harry]

Heinrich,
You seem to be missing the point.There was over three hours delay between the time it was found the door wouldn't open,and the order to force it.

[Heinrich]

Joseph Barnett was acting something like a stalker inasmuch as he continued to visit Mary Kelly in her dwelling despite claiming that he had left her because of her company-keeping and intention to continue prostitution. He just would not leave her alone but unlike a stranger who stalks, he could enter 13 Miller's Court whenever he wished despite the lost key.

[Ben]

Some sensible and astute points there, Curious, with which I'd agree entirely.

As for my two shadows...oops, I meant fabulously astute respondents, I really wouldn't cling to the notion that Miller's Court was unsuitable for the purposes of monitoring any individual who occupied a dwelling therein. If the killer was familiar with Kelly in some other non-murderous capacity, then the act of "stalking" would have consisted of simple surveillance of the court, along with the comings and goings of its occupants. Study a few other serial killers (which I know full fell that some of my most insistent pesterers haven't), and you'll realize what I propose is perfectly in accordance with their behaviour.

[Wickerman]

I would suggest that Kelly’s abode didn’t really lend itself to stalking as it was down a side court. For all the stalker might know, anyone who went down the passage may enter no 13.

Precisely Lechmere, thankyou.
A dozen rooms down that court but this stalker-killer chooses to loiter in Dorset St's equivalent of Picadilly Circus, and with the shop still open to boot!


Regards, Jon S.

[Lechmere]

I would suggest that Kelly’s abode didn’t really lend itself to stalking as it was down a side court. For all the stalker might know, anyone who went down the passage may enter no 13.

If the Ripper wanted to find a random stalk victim I would suggest he would have selected one that lived in premises where the door could be seen much more easily than having to stand directly opposite Miller’s Court.