Suspect Witnesses?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It is a possibility Sunny but I have difficulty with it. Reaching for a packet of anything would be the last thing on my mind if I was assaulted.

Of course. Talk about mental gymnastics!

I would leg it, or scream for help. Why put yourself in danger by running into a darkened yard [ three brutal murders in the previous few weeks and both Diemschultz and Eagle had difficulty seeing anything ] , not impossible but it seems likely the side door was shut at the time,.

Apparently, she didn't scream for help, and obviously she cannot have legged it very far. So ...

Liz was also facing the wrong way [ feet towards the street ] so the assailant would have had to pull her around, again not impossible but why not pull Liz to behind the gate if he was going to pull her anywhere.

Right. It's more like a case of her going into the yard voluntarily, then trying to scurry when she realised something was wrong.

Blackwell - The bonnet of the deceased was lying on the ground a few inches from the head. This a problem for me . Obviously the bonnet had come off when Liz was attacked . But wouldn't it then have come off when she was thrown to the ground ? Of if she went into the yard wouldn't it also maybe have come off when the killer grabbed her before pulling her around ? It was near Liz's head . The most likely explanation for me personally, is that it came off when the killer grabbed her scarf and lowered her to the ground with his hands [ bluish marks over both shoulders ] after throttling her . Her feet being were she stood when this happened.

Agree again - the bonnet must have come off twice. Remember what PC Lamb said:

Her clothes were not disarranged. Even the boots were scarcely to be seen. She looked as if she had been gently laid down.

BS Man gently laid her down? I don't think so.

So, another man must have come along, while Stride remains near the gateway, unwitnessed. Well, Leon Goldstein came along, and this was supposedly just before Fanny Mortimer locked her door. Yet she saw no-one enter the gates.

Darryl, who do you suppose Brown saw by the board school wall?

[New Waterloo]

OK let me try and be simple (yes some will say that's not difficult) Anyway simple question. If we are to believe that Spooner and his girlfriend are standing by the Beehive pub between 1230am and 1.05am (when he went with the searchers to Berner Street) why didn't Spooner and his girlfriend see Schwarz hurry by followed by another man or have I got the direction that Schwartz travelled incorrect.

NW

[New Waterloo]

Schwartz is innocently walking along Berner Street. He stumbles across a disturbance by the gates to the club. There are two men outside the gates, BSM and Pipeman (apart from Schwartz) a female (Stride) also just outside the gateway and possibly parcel man not far away (possibly in the club yard) There may be others inside the yard we are unaware of. Possibly Leon Goldstein.

Whatever theories we have Schwartz has clearly stumbled across something by accident. Something is going on which seems to involve all of the people there. BSM is physically involved, Pipeman gets physically involved, people are agitated by something.

These do not appear random people.

There has never been an explanation as to what was going on at that gateway but Stride has her throat cut. Why on earth would anybody cut Strides throat. With all the comings and goings its a massive risk for anyone including JTR.

Because if Stride was murdered by JTR then we have him. He is one of the men present at that disturbance Pipeman, BSM, Parcelman or Goldstein isnt he.

If it wasnt JTR well its anyone's guess. But Kidney top of the list.

Its not smartly dressed gold chain man or William Gull or anyone like that. The Stride case illuminates many suspects.

To simple I know

NW

[NotBlamedForNothing]

OK let me try and be simple (yes some will say that's not difficult) Anyway simple question. If we are to believe that Spooner and his girlfriend are standing by the Beehive pub between 1230am and 1.05am (when he went with the searchers to Berner Street) why didn't Spooner and his girlfriend see Schwarz hurry by followed by another man or have I got the direction that Schwartz travelled incorrect.

NW

Are you going to believe Schwartz, or Spooner's lying eyes?

[Wickerman]

Are you going to believe Schwartz, or Spooner's lying eyes?

Accusing any witness of lying is a cheap way out, a child can do that.
The challenge is to assume they are both telling the truth.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Accusing any witness of lying is a cheap way out, a child can do that.
The challenge is to assume they are both telling the truth.

We have a report that says Schwartz had been living in Berner St*. The notion of him getting the street wrong would seem to be a long-shot. However, what choice do we have when working under the 'no lies' constraint? Since when does a murder bring out the best of human decency and honesty?

* #224 argues otherwise.

[GBinOz]

George,
how does this scenario fit with this ...



This would mean we have Lave, Eagle, Goldstein and Parcelman, all in the yard at some point. In what order does this occur that allows Goldstein to make a return trip to Spectacle Cafe?

Who did James Brown see by the board school, and when in relation to the above, do you suppose they arrived at that location?

Hi Andrew,

I think that we all know that all hypotheses are based entirely on speculation and conjecture, and that no one has the answers, or ever will. However, if you would like a speculated scenario....Lave has concluded his sojourn in the yard before Smith notices Stride and Parcelman. After Smith passes them they cross the road and Parcelman heads for the Loo while Stride waits at the gateway. Eagle returns from walking his girlfriend home, have indulged in some libations on the return trip and finding Stride in the gateway, suspects her of soliciting and attempts to move her on. Goldstein has emerged from the club to go and retrieve his cigarette tins, and it standing in the shadows watching. Eagle departs when Pipeman shouts a warning at him, and Stride makes some rude anti-semitic remarks which anger Goldstein and he kills her. As I said - pure speculation.

I don't know who Brown saw, but am persuaded that it wasn't Stride.

Cheers, George

[Sunny Delight]

It is a possibility Sunny but I have difficulty with it. Reaching for a packet of anything would be the last thing on my mind if I was assaulted. I would leg it, or scream for help. Why put yourself in danger by running into a darkened yard [ three brutal murders in the previous few weeks and both Diemschultz and Eagle had difficulty seeing anything ] , not impossible but it seems likely the side door was shut at the time,. One thing is for certain is Liz wouldn't have encountered a policeman , and as seen by James Brown's evidence people were still on the street with certain shops open. .
Liz was also facing the wrong way [ feet towards the street ] so the assailant would have had to pull her around, again not impossible but why not pull Liz to behind the gate if he was going to pull her anywhere.

Blackwell - The bonnet of the deceased was lying on the ground a few inches from the head. This a problem for me . Obviously the bonnet had come off when Liz was attacked . But wouldn't it then have come off when she was thrown to the ground ? Of if she went into the yard wouldn't it also maybe have come off when the killer grabbed her before pulling her around ? It was near Liz's head . The most likely explanation for me personally, is that it came off when the killer grabbed her scarf and lowered her to the ground with his hands [ bluish marks over both shoulders ] after throttling her . Her feet being were she stood when this happened.

Regards Darryl

I would be the same if I had just been thrown to the ground by someone. But then I live in a very middle class area were there is little crime. I think however we need to think about the type of women these were and what they faced, probably on a daily basis. Casual violence against women at that time was so commonplace that when Catherine Eddowes told a Policeman she would get a hiding when she got home, the Policeman told her it served her right. And not only did he say this too her, he then nonchalantly repeated it at the Inquest for the World to hear.

If violence was so common against woman, we can only imagine what women like Elizabeth Stride faced. Added to that she would have had to been able to handle herself on the streets at night, alone and picking up random men as she did throughout the night she was killed. So would a scuffle/assault where she was thrown to the ground really leave her in an overwhelmingly distressed state, or is it possible she shrugged it off as just another drunkard who decided to throw his weight around. Like the many she had seen before.

I ageee that the bonnet is an anomaly in my scenario. But alas no scenario is perfect!!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

I think that we all know that all hypotheses are based entirely on speculation and conjecture, and that no one has the answers, or ever will. However, if you would like a speculated scenario....Lave has concluded his sojourn in the yard before Smith notices Stride and Parcelman. After Smith passes them they cross the road and Parcelman heads for the Loo while Stride waits at the gateway. Eagle returns from walking his girlfriend home, have indulged in some libations on the return trip and finding Stride in the gateway, suspects her of soliciting and attempts to move her on. Goldstein has emerged from the club to go and retrieve his cigarette tins, and it standing in the shadows watching. Eagle departs when Pipeman shouts a warning at him, and Stride makes some rude anti-semitic remarks which anger Goldstein and he kills her. As I said - pure speculation.

Many lies in this scenario, George. We have a newspaper report concerning the women in the kitchen, who told the journalist that someone came in at about 12:40, and no one else until Diemschitz. That would seem to be Eagle. Yet you have Eagle departing. To where? He was involved in the police search. Who came in the door if not Eagle - was it Lave? That would seem to be difficult given you have Smith passing after Lave observes the street.

Your scenario also ascribes a lot of power to words. Pipeman shouts a warning at Eagle, causing him to depart rather than going inside for supper. Stride says something antisemitic to a (possibly atheist) Jew, who responds by killing her.

I don't know who Brown saw, but am persuaded that it wasn't Stride.

You have a complex scenario with much inventiveness. Compare that to Overcoat Man (who is possibly Parcelman) killing Stride. Once Schwartz and company are brought into the picture, everything becomes extremely complex and contradictory.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I would be the same if I had just been thrown to the ground by someone. But then I live in a very middle class area were there is little crime. I think however we need to think about the type of women these were and what they faced, probably on a daily basis. Casual violence against women at that time was so commonplace that when Catherine Eddowes told a Policeman she would get a hiding when she got home, the Policeman told her it served her right. And not only did he say this too her, he then nonchalantly repeated it at the Inquest for the World to hear.

If violence was so common against woman, we can only imagine what women like Elizabeth Stride faced. Added to that she would have had to been able to handle herself on the streets at night, alone and picking up random men as she did throughout the night she was killed. So would a scuffle/assault where she was thrown to the ground really leave her in an overwhelmingly distressed state, or is it possible she shrugged it off as just another drunkard who decided to throw his weight around. Like the many she had seen before.

I ageee that the bonnet is an anomaly in my scenario. But alas no scenario is perfect!!

So, she shrugged it off as par for the course, and then what - kept standing in the gateway? Apparently not ...

Israel Schwartz walked the length of the street and did not see anyone else talk to Elizabeth Stride, he did not see anyone else in the area apart from a man who was lighting his pipe, after Schwartz had witnessed the assault/scuffle. So here we have a victim, not 15 minutes before she is found dead, being involved in being thrown to the ground by an unknkown male. It takes a good degree of force to throw someone to the ground. So this was not something that was innocuous.

There are large degrees of mental gymnastics undertaken to try and place the man with the parcel seen with Stride at 12:30, in the immediate vicinity of Dutfields Yard, at the time she is assaulted by the unknown male. Isn't it more likely that a man show to be violent towards her 15minutes before her death, was involved in killing her. Isn't it much more likely that Stride, in the moments BS man was distracted by Schwartz, got back up from the ground and tried to gather herself. Reached for some cachous and thought about making her way into the sanctuary of the club via the side door, only to be caught from behind by BS man by her scarf. He then strangles her, cuts her throat but thinks better of the mutiliations and instead leaves the area.

So, her "shrugging it off" consisting of getting off the ground, putting her bonnet back on, reaching for her packet of cachous as she wasn't too distressed and felt like having a sweet treat, then attempting to find sanctuary from this every day/night occurrence, by making into the side door of the club, only to be caught from behind by her scarf, murdered, and falling to the ground with her feet closer to the street than her head.

Schwartz's story is injurious to common sense.

[GBinOz]

Many lies in this scenario, George. We have a newspaper report concerning the women in the kitchen, who told the journalist that someone came in at about 12:40, and no one else until Diemschitz. That would seem to be Eagle. Yet you have Eagle departing. To where? He was involved in the police search. Who came in the door if not Eagle - was it Lave? That would seem to be difficult given you have Smith passing after Lave observes the street.

Your scenario also ascribes a lot of power to words. Pipeman shouts a warning at Eagle, causing him to depart rather than going inside for supper. Stride says something antisemitic to a (possibly atheist) Jew, who responds by killing her.

Hi Andrew,

When I used the word depart I meant depart the scene of the conflict and continue on his way into the club. Of course I am, and was, fully aware of Eagle's activities both in the club and after the discovery of the body. Then there is this curious exchange at the inquest:
[Coroner] Did you see anyone about in Berner-street? - I dare say I did, but I do not remember them.
[Coroner] Did you observe any one in the yard? - I do not remember that I did.
[Coroner] If there had been a man and woman there you would have remembered the circumstance? - Yes; I am sure of that.

He thinks he saw people in the street but does not remember them. He does not remember seeing anyone in the yard but was sure that he would remember if he did??

If he did enter the club around 12:40 he should have either seen Stride and Parcelman in the street or Stride standing in the gateway, unless she was already dead. I expect that you may suggest that maybe Stride and Parcelman were the couple that Brown saw, but Smith didn't report a ground length overcoat, unless it was folded and wrapped in newspaper. Neither Best nor Gardner reported a long overcoat, wrapped or otherwise.

Brown testified that he saw the couple on his way back from the chandler's shop. So if Eagle was BSman, the Schwartz incident could have taken place while Brown was in the chandler's shop and before the couple arrived at the corner. So was Stride killed by Pipeman, Goldstein, Eagle or Parcelman (or someone else). IMO, more likely one of the first two, based entirely on supposition and speculation.

Disclaimer: Times subject to inaccurate clock syncs and estimates of intervals.

Cheers, George

[c.d.]

It takes a good degree of force to throw someone to the ground. So this was not something that was innocuous.

Unless their feet got tangled up or Stride was pulling one way and the B.S man the other and one suddenly let go throwing Stride off balance.

Isn't it more likely that a man show to be violent towards her 15minutes before her death, was involved in killing her.

What exactly did this "violence" consist of? Going strictly by Schwartz's story, had she found a nearby PC and had him arrested what do you think the consequences would have been? My guess would be a lecture and don't do it again or maybe a small fine. Not major consequences for such "violence." Or are we assigning a degree of "violence" not based solely on Schwartz's story but more on her subsequent death?


c.d.

[GBinOz]

It takes a good degree of force to throw someone to the ground. So this was not something that was innocuous.

Unless their feet got tangled up or Stride was pulling one way and the B.S man the other and one suddenly let go throwing Stride off balance.

c.d.

Hi c.d.,

Absolutely agree. I think that this is why Stride's protestation was not very loud.

Cheers, George

[FISHY1118]

It takes a good degree of force to throw someone to the ground. So this was not something that was innocuous.

Unless their feet got tangled up or Stride was pulling one way and the B.S man the other and one suddenly let go throwing Stride off balance.

Isn't it more likely that a man show to be violent towards her 15minutes before her death, was involved in killing her.

What exactly did this "violence" consist of? Going strictly by Schwartz's story, had she found a nearby PC and had him arrested what do you think the consequences would have been? My guess would be a lecture and don't do it again or maybe a small fine. Not major consequences for such "violence." Or are we assigning a degree of "violence" not based solely on Schwartz's story but more on her subsequent death?


c.d.

Makes sense, Schwartz was trying to pull stride into the street, if she refused then her natural movement would be in the opposite direction .

[GBinOz]

Makes sense, Schwartz was trying to pull stride into the street, if she refused then her natural movement would be in the opposite direction .

I suspect that you meant BSMan rather than Schwartz, but I agree with the principle.