Suspect Witnesses?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It is a possibility Sunny but I have difficulty with it. Reaching for a packet of anything would be the last thing on my mind if I was assaulted.

Of course. Talk about mental gymnastics!

I would leg it, or scream for help. Why put yourself in danger by running into a darkened yard [ three brutal murders in the previous few weeks and both Diemschultz and Eagle had difficulty seeing anything ] , not impossible but it seems likely the side door was shut at the time,.

Apparently, she didn't scream for help, and obviously she cannot have legged it very far. So ...

Liz was also facing the wrong way [ feet towards the street ] so the assailant would have had to pull her around, again not impossible but why not pull Liz to behind the gate if he was going to pull her anywhere.

Right. It's more like a case of her going into the yard voluntarily, then trying to scurry when she realised something was wrong.

Blackwell - The bonnet of the deceased was lying on the ground a few inches from the head. This a problem for me . Obviously the bonnet had come off when Liz was attacked . But wouldn't it then have come off when she was thrown to the ground ? Of if she went into the yard wouldn't it also maybe have come off when the killer grabbed her before pulling her around ? It was near Liz's head . The most likely explanation for me personally, is that it came off when the killer grabbed her scarf and lowered her to the ground with his hands [ bluish marks over both shoulders ] after throttling her . Her feet being were she stood when this happened.

Agree again - the bonnet must have come off twice. Remember what PC Lamb said:

Her clothes were not disarranged. Even the boots were scarcely to be seen. She looked as if she had been gently laid down.

BS Man gently laid her down? I don't think so.

So, another man must have come along, while Stride remains near the gateway, unwitnessed. Well, Leon Goldstein came along, and this was supposedly just before Fanny Mortimer locked her door. Yet she saw no-one enter the gates.

Darryl, who do you suppose Brown saw by the board school wall?

[New Waterloo]

OK let me try and be simple (yes some will say that's not difficult) Anyway simple question. If we are to believe that Spooner and his girlfriend are standing by the Beehive pub between 1230am and 1.05am (when he went with the searchers to Berner Street) why didn't Spooner and his girlfriend see Schwarz hurry by followed by another man or have I got the direction that Schwartz travelled incorrect.

NW

[New Waterloo]

Schwartz is innocently walking along Berner Street. He stumbles across a disturbance by the gates to the club. There are two men outside the gates, BSM and Pipeman (apart from Schwartz) a female (Stride) also just outside the gateway and possibly parcel man not far away (possibly in the club yard) There may be others inside the yard we are unaware of. Possibly Leon Goldstein.

Whatever theories we have Schwartz has clearly stumbled across something by accident. Something is going on which seems to involve all of the people there. BSM is physically involved, Pipeman gets physically involved, people are agitated by something.

These do not appear random people.

There has never been an explanation as to what was going on at that gateway but Stride has her throat cut. Why on earth would anybody cut Strides throat. With all the comings and goings its a massive risk for anyone including JTR.

Because if Stride was murdered by JTR then we have him. He is one of the men present at that disturbance Pipeman, BSM, Parcelman or Goldstein isnt he.

If it wasnt JTR well its anyone's guess. But Kidney top of the list.

Its not smartly dressed gold chain man or William Gull or anyone like that. The Stride case illuminates many suspects.

To simple I know

NW

[NotBlamedForNothing]

OK let me try and be simple (yes some will say that's not difficult) Anyway simple question. If we are to believe that Spooner and his girlfriend are standing by the Beehive pub between 1230am and 1.05am (when he went with the searchers to Berner Street) why didn't Spooner and his girlfriend see Schwarz hurry by followed by another man or have I got the direction that Schwartz travelled incorrect.

NW

Are you going to believe Schwartz, or Spooner's lying eyes?

[Wickerman]

Are you going to believe Schwartz, or Spooner's lying eyes?

Accusing any witness of lying is a cheap way out, a child can do that.
The challenge is to assume they are both telling the truth.