Suspect Witnesses?

[GBinOz]

I think Stride was probably lured into the passageway with the promise of something. She took some convincing. Perhaps Overcoat Man was a gentile, but with some association with someone(s) at the club. Hence the protective stories about a man pursued and the witnessing of an assault at the gateway by a man who shouts 'Lipski'. What did OM believe the Juwes would be blamed for?

Hi Andrew,

So who was present to make this promise. It is unlikely that it was her antagonist, BSMan. It could have been Pipeman acting in the White Knight role after warning off BSMan. IMO the critical question is...where is Parcelman.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

So who was present to make this promise. It is unlikely that it was her antagonist, BSMan. It could have been Pipeman acting in the White Knight role after warning off BSMan. IMO the critical question is...where is Parcelman.

Cheers, George

Hi George.

Not necessarily anyone if he is a sneaker f***k*r, and not necessarily anything tangible. Perhaps it's the promise of getting her a gig (broadly defined) at the club. I think the statement "Not tonight, some other night" is interesting - she isn't accepting his offer, nor is she indicating he should give up trying. He's tempting her with something.

I don't know if this is Parcelman, or that person has gone off. That latter might indicate that Stride was happy to chat to 'randoms' on the street.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Three women had been brutally murdered in the previous few weeks within not more than a few hundred yards away to the gates of the club and the killer is still at large. A man comes along who manhandles Liz outside said gates and then persuades her to go into a darkened yard with him. Where upon she herself is violently killed with no defence wounds and in fact it seems the opposite, that Liz was in a relaxed state [ cachous in hand ]. The first physician on the scene - Blackwell says I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way. So in other words Liz had her back turned to her assailant . An assailant who has just thrown her to the ground, and thrown out a racial slur where upon one man [ at least ] was scared enough to scurry down the street. Yet Liz turns her back on this person and walks into a yard which is pretty much devoid of light. Not for me

Regards Darryl

[The Rookie Detective]

If Parcelman was holding a folded coat in a parcel, then he could have been any of the other individuals mentioned being there that night.

Unlikely, but what if he was holding an overcoat folded into a parcel?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Not necessarily anyone if he is a sneaker f***k*r, and not necessarily anything tangible.

Sneaker f**k*r or sneaky f**k*r? Perhaps he was sneaky f**k*r who wore sneakers? Perhaps he and Stride sneaked into the yard together, unheard by the women in the kitchen. Sneaked or snuck? Perhaps they sneaked in and he snuck out.

[New Waterloo]

Regarding the witness Schwartz, (the Hungarian). I so no reason to doubt that he existed and reported what he saw to the police. Again there may be problems with his interpretation of what he saw and this could be the same for many witnesses.

Reading through The Star articles again it is interesting to note that Schwartz describes the location of the pushing and pulling incident as the 'alleyway' where the body of Stride was later found. He then uses the word 'passage'.

When interpreters are used there are some obvious difficulties with finding the right translations for things. However the interpreter would have conversed with Schwartz to clarify.

If Schwartz was familiar with the Socialist Club he would have said that that was the location. To say an alleyway would seem to suggest that that is what he thought it was.

I think this suggests if nothing else that he was unfamiliar with the club, OR as suggested by others that he has described another location close by. Isn't there an alley way just before the club on the same side of the road.

I just don't know why he didn't say in the gateway to the club. Maybe I have missed something in reports about what Schwartz said but as it stands he mentions Berner Street and an alleyway. Maybe he witnessed another 'domestic' and later put two and two together and got five.

I have written this but it seems unlikely but worth saying I think

NW

[c.d.]

When interpreters are used there are some obvious difficulties with finding the right translations for things. However the interpreter would have conversed with Schwartz to clarify.

I don't think we can say that with any degree of confidence, N.W. Maybe the interpreter felt he completely understood what was being said by Schwartz.

Plus, Schwartz was a foreigner so we have no way of knowing what all those terms actually meant to him.

And don't we still argue about them today?

c.d

[Wickerman]

Except for that mythical character who conveniently found her standing alone in the gateway.

Stride had not been seen alone at anytime that night, so why do you think she was alone in the gateway?

I think Stride was probably lured into the passageway with the promise of something. She took some convincing. Perhaps Overcoat Man was a gentile, but with some association with someone(s) at the club. Hence the protective stories about a man pursued and the witnessing of an assault at the gateway by a man who shouts 'Lipski'. What did OM believe the Juwes would be blamed for?

She doesn't need to be lured into the yard, she's with a man. Either a client or a date, either way, stepping into the shadows for a quick smooch or something more intimate is only to be expected with many couples.
What is not likely is to say she walked into the yard by herself.

I can't see this line of reasoning going anywhere.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Could this have been the case, a brief interlude while Spooner was accompanying his girlfriend home, after which he returns to the corner to see the Jews running back and forth. Harris emerges to enquire what happened, but stays put to later advise as P.C. a to the direction of the disturbance, as observed by Brown.

Cheer, George

Spooner said he was with his girl standing outside the Beehive pub, "when two Jews came running along . ."

Are you suggesting he wasn't with his girl at that location?

[Wickerman]

If Parcelman was holding a folded coat in a parcel, then he could have been any of the other individuals mentioned being there that night.

Unlikely, but what if he was holding an overcoat folded into a parcel?

How many men do you think Stride was with, who carried a parcel, at the same time, at the same location?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Stride had not been seen alone at anytime that night, so why do you think she was alone in the gateway?

How clearly does scepticism of Schwartz have to be stated before it is understood?

She doesn't need to be lured into the yard, she's with a man. Either a client or a date, either way, stepping into the shadows for a quick smooch or something more intimate is only to be expected with many couples.
What is not likely is to say she walked into the yard by herself.

By herself? I've been banging on about James Brown and Overcoat Man for two weeks.

I can't see this line of reasoning going anywhere.

Please tell us about Stride at the gateway while Parcelman lurks in the darkness of the yard.

[GBinOz]

How clearly does scepticism of Schwartz have to be stated before it is understood?

Please tell us about Stride at the gateway while Parcelman lurks in the darkness of the yard.

Hi Andrew,

Parcelman didn't have to be "lurking in the darkness". IMO it would be more likely that he was using the Loo in the yard while Stride waited for him, thus allowing the Schwartz incident to be enacted without interference by Parcelman.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

Parcelman didn't have to be "lurking in the darkness". IMO it would be more likely that he was using the Loo in the yard while Stride waited for him, thus allowing the Schwartz incident to be enacted without interference by Parcelman.

Cheers, George

George,
how does this scenario fit with this ...

With regard to Goldstein, I do not share your opinion. I maintain my belief that Mortimer and Mrs Artisan were different people. Mrs Artisan reached the yard when there were "only two or three people" present. Mortimer said that "on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gate with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm". This is a reference to Spooner who said that there were about 15 people present when he arrived. Mrs Artisan saw Goldstein headed North to establish an alibi at the Spectacle Cafe (12 minute return trip) and Mortimer saw him return and glance to check if the body had been discovered....Maybe???

This would mean we have Lave, Eagle, Goldstein and Parcelman, all in the yard at some point. In what order does this occur that allows Goldstein to make a return trip to Spectacle Cafe?

Who did James Brown see by the board school, and when in relation to the above, do you suppose they arrived at that location?

[Sunny Delight]

Israel Schwartz walked the length of the street and did not see anyone else talk to Elizabeth Stride, he did not see anyone else in the area apart from a man who was lighting his pipe, after Schwartz had witnessed the assault/scuffle. So here we have a victim, not 15 minutes before she is found dead, being involved in being thrown to the ground by an unknkown male. It takes a good degree of force to throw someone to the ground. So this was not something that was innocuous.

There are large degrees of mental gymnastics undertaken to try and place the man with the parcel seen with Stride at 12:30, in the immediate vicinity of Dutfields Yard, at the time she is assaulted by the unknown male. Isn't it more likely that a man show to be violent towards her 15minutes before her death, was involved in killing her. Isn't it much more likely that Stride, in the moments BS man was distracted by Schwartz, got back up from the ground and tried to gather herself. Reached for some cachous and thought about making her way into the sanctuary of the club via the side door, only to be caught from behind by BS man by her scarf. He then strangles her, cuts her throat but thinks better of the mutiliations and instead leaves the area.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Israel Schwartz walked the length of the street and did not see anyone else talk to Elizabeth Stride, he did not see anyone else in the area apart from a man who was lighting his pipe, after Schwartz had witnessed the assault/scuffle. So here we have a victim, not 15 minutes before she is found dead, being involved in being thrown to the ground by an unknkown male. It takes a good degree of force to throw someone to the ground. So this was not something that was innocuous.

There are large degrees of mental gymnastics undertaken to try and place the man with the parcel seen with Stride at 12:30, in the immediate vicinity of Dutfields Yard, at the time she is assaulted by the unknown male. Isn't it more likely that a man show to be violent towards her 15minutes before her death, was involved in killing her. Isn't it much more likely that Stride, in the moments BS man was distracted by Schwartz, got back up from the ground and tried to gather herself. Reached for some cachous and thought about making her way into the sanctuary of the club via the side door, only to be caught from behind by BS man by her scarf. He then strangles her, cuts her throat but thinks better of the mutiliations and instead leaves the area.

It is a possibility Sunny but I have difficulty with it. Reaching for a packet of anything would be the last thing on my mind if I was assaulted. I would leg it, or scream for help. Why put yourself in danger by running into a darkened yard [ three brutal murders in the previous few weeks and both Diemschultz and Eagle had difficulty seeing anything ] , not impossible but it seems likely the side door was shut at the time,. One thing is for certain is Liz wouldn't have encountered a policeman , and as seen by James Brown's evidence people were still on the street with certain shops open. .
Liz was also facing the wrong way [ feet towards the street ] so the assailant would have had to pull her around, again not impossible but why not pull Liz to behind the gate if he was going to pull her anywhere.

Blackwell - The bonnet of the deceased was lying on the ground a few inches from the head. This a problem for me . Obviously the bonnet had come off when Liz was attacked . But wouldn't it then have come off when she was thrown to the ground ? Of if she went into the yard wouldn't it also maybe have come off when the killer grabbed her before pulling her around ? It was near Liz's head . The most likely explanation for me personally, is that it came off when the killer grabbed her scarf and lowered her to the ground with his hands [ bluish marks over both shoulders ] after throttling her . Her feet being were she stood when this happened.

Regards Darryl