Suspect Witnesses?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Why can’t the couple be Spooner and his lady friend? They were around. They had returned from a pub in Commercial Road so why couldn’t they have walked down Berner Street and gone left into Fairclough? Might they have stopped on the corner for a short time to be seen by Brown? Is it impossible that after Spooner went to the yard with Diemschitz his girlfriend decided to walk round there to see what was going on (where she’d spoken to Fanny)?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I find it fascinating how the only time the girl stated she was alone, was when she walked past the yard a few minutes before midnight, and up to meet her young man at the top of the street at the junction with Commercial Road.

The rest of the statement is spoken in the context of them both being together...

...even for the walk back down Berner St.

Literally

And apparently I am the one whose not sticking to the known evidence.

As you know, Wickerman wants to append " and back again" to "we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street", on the basis that this is implied. The problem is that the sentence and report make sense without those supposedly implied words. The couple went down Berner St together, and she notes that no one passed them when doing so. The report implies that this was occurring at close to 12:30. A stroll along Berner St is going to take about 2 minutes, at which point they say goodnight to each other. So, just before that they were at the top of Berner St, were they saw a man walking in the direction of Aldgate.

As I said previously, the young woman's "just before" is like Mortimer's "just gone indoors", in regard to timespan - a couple of minutes.

Would be nice if we knew who the couple were. I'll take a punt on the identity of the man.

Charles Letchford, living at 30 Berner street, says:- "I passed through the street at half past 12, and everything seemed to me to be going on as usual, and my sister was standing at the door at ten minutes to one, but did not see anyone pass by. I heard the commotion when the body was found, and heard the policemen's whistles, but did not take any notice of the matter, as disturbances are very frequent at the club, and I thought it was only another row."

This happened to me before when Schwartz stated he got "as far as the gateway" when he witnessed the assault on Stride.

Not from half way up the road

He had to be in visual sight of Stride to see her being assaulted in the first place.

And yet again, apparently I wasn't sticking to the known facts.

Some of us can seemingly alter and manipulate statements to fit things, while others can't.

Yes, Schwartz was seemingly so close the action that it's a wonder he wasn't regarded as being an intruder. Oh wait ...

I think you and I are in the minority on this.

We both know that Schwartz was dodgy for example.

I know we differ on this couple thing, but at least with you there's never any attempt to quash someone else's ideas.

I appreciate every single time you post, as you've always got something constructive to say, whether I agree with it or not.

Thanks. Keep up your good work.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Why can’t the couple be Spooner and his lady friend? They were around. They had returned from a pub in Commercial Road so why couldn’t they have walked down Berner Street and gone left into Fairclough? Might they have stopped on the corner for a short time to be seen by Brown? Is it impossible that after Spooner went to the yard with Diemschitz his girlfriend decided to walk round there to see what was going on (where she’d spoken to Fanny)?

I reckon that is exactly what happened to Spooner's lady friend, after Edward left her on the street. Presumably, he ran off with her saying something like "I'll meet you there". For this to work we must suppose Fanny thought that the pub they were outside was the Nelson, when in fact it was the Beehive. Hence her belief that they had been less than 20 yards from the murder.

Anyone who disagrees with this theory will need to explain what became of the lady friend left alone on Fairclough St.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I reckon that is exactly what happened to Spooner's lady friend, after Edward left her on the street. Presumably, he ran off with her saying something like "I'll meet you there". For this to work we must suppose Fanny thought that the pub they were outside was the Nelson, when in fact it was the Beehive. Hence her belief that they had been less than 20 yards from the murder.

Anyone who disagrees with this theory will need to explain what became of the lady friend left alone on Fairclough St.

Does this mean that we agree on something Andrew?

[Wickerman]

How can she say "goodnight" to him, if she's already walked down back down Berner St alone?

The question you need to ask yourself is, how can she see a man walk across the top end of Berner St., unless she was at the top end?
Which directly suggests, either her walk down Berner st. was only a few yards, or the couple walked down and back - then said 'goodnight'.

I don't think this is difficult to figure out.

[Wickerman]

They see a man walk along Commercial Road - they must be at the top of the street.

They then walk down Berner St (exactly as she says)

And then they say "Goodnight"

Wrong sequence.
First they walk down Berner St. (and back), so now, back at the top, they can easily see a man walk along Commercial St., then they say 'goodnight', at the same spot where they met.

[Wickerman]

I reckon that is exactly what happened to Spooner's lady friend, after Edward left her on the street. Presumably, he ran off with her saying something like "I'll meet you there". For this to work we must suppose Fanny thought that the pub they were outside was the Nelson, when in fact it was the Beehive. Hence her belief that they had been less than 20 yards from the murder.

Fanny didn't 'think' anything, the young girl spoke to the journalist, she said 'they' (girl + boyfriend) had been standing 'not 50 yds' away. And had been there for 20 minutes, when the alarm was raised.
The Beehive pub is 100 yards from Dutfield Yard.

Anyone who disagrees with this theory will need to explain what became of the lady friend left alone on Fairclough St.

No need to explain anything, PC Lamb said when he got there, shortly after Spooner arrived, there were about 30 people in the yard.
Any one of them could have been Spooner's ladyfriend, Eagle said there were about a half-dozen women at the club that night.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Does this mean that we agree on something Andrew?

Shockingly, it would appear so.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Wrong sequence.
First they walk down Berner St. (and back), so now, back at the top, they can easily see a man walk along Commercial St., then they say 'goodnight', at the same spot where they met.

This guy really knew how to impress a girl - walk her virtually to her door, then have her turn around and walk back to the top of the street with him, before saying goodnight to her and letting her walk back home alone. Classy.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Fanny didn't 'think' anything, the young girl spoke to the journalist, she said 'they' (girl + boyfriend) had been standing 'not 50 yds' away. And had been there for 20 minutes, when the alarm was raised.
The Beehive pub is 100 yards from Dutfield Yard.

When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises.

The young woman is not quoted, suggesting the reporter is getting this information second-hand, as is the case with the "measured, heavy tramp" report that immediately follows. The bisecting thoroughfare is not named, and the not fifty yards reference is ambiguous, suggesting confusion as to which corner the couple had been standing at. Why would the young woman give an estimate that broad, if Fanny could see them from her doorstep?

Yes, the Beehive was 100 yards from the yard, so the second-hand source - probably Fanny - was not a completely reliable one.

No need to explain anything, PC Lamb said when he got there, shortly after Spooner arrived, there were about 30 people in the yard.
Any one of them could have been Spooner's ladyfriend, Eagle said there were about a half-dozen women at the club that night.

If neither the lady friend nor Mortimer were locked into the yard when Lamb closed the gates, it seems reasonable to suppose that they could have got talking. Now she just happened to mention standing at a corner for about 20 minutes, and Spooner stated he was at the Beehive corner for about 25 minutes.

FM: A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

Fanny thought the couple had been standing at the Nelson corner. Had that been the case, they would have been in a position to see:

* Liz Stride at the gateway
* BS Man throwing her to the footway
* Israel Schwartz stopping to watch
* Pipeman lighting his pipe
* Pipeman seemingly pursue Schwartz at running pace
* Fanny Mortimer at her doorstep
* James Brown going to and from the chandler's shop
* Leon Goldstein walking hurriedly down Berner and into Fairclough St with black bag
* Whoever else may have entered the yard to commit the murder

Yet we hear nothing of them from the police, or at the inquest.

[The Rookie Detective]

This guy really knew how to impress a girl - walk her virtually to her door, then have her turn around and walk back to the top of the street with him, before saying goodnight to her and letting her walk back home alone. Classy.

Exactly

So according to Jon...

The girl walks up Berner St from her house (in Berner St) and walks past the yard (meaning she lives SOUTH of the murder site) and then she meets her man at the top of the street at the junction of Commercial Road, before they then take a short walk along Commercial Road, and then they walk back along Commercial Road to get back to the corner of Berner st, but they then walk back down Berner St together...and then turn around and go back up Berners St to the corner of Commercial Road again...at which time they then see the man walking along Commercial Road towards Aldgate...and then they say "goodnight"...and the girl then walks back down Berner Street again, alone...and walks back past the murder site, while her young man walks off from the corner of Commercial Road.


And nobody sees any problem with that?


Hilarious.

[Wickerman]

This guy really knew how to impress a girl - walk her virtually to her door, then have her turn around and walk back to the top of the street with him, before saying goodnight to her and letting her walk back home alone. Classy.

Then perhaps there was a reason, after all she walked to the top of the street to meet him. Which suggests she might not want her parents to know who she was meeting?
Maybe he is a quick learner ?
(. . "if I catch you anywhere near my daughter again" . . .) or words to that effect.

[Wickerman]

Exactly

So according to Jon...

The girl walks up Berner St from her house (in Berner St) and walks past the yard (meaning she lives SOUTH of the murder site) and then she meets her man at the top of the street at the junction of Commercial Road,. . .

Yes, and this, at midnight.
Our first question should be, what is a nice girl doing out by herself at such a late hour?

As I suggested, maybe she sneaked out when her parents went to bed?
Or, maybe she was a servant girl, who got off at 11:30 pm, and snook out of her room to meet her date?
The very fact she seems to have been out so late by herself suggests this was a meeting that would not be approved of by, either her family or her employer or associates.
Because she did walk up Berner St. by herself, it is quite reasonable to suggest she had to walk back by herself, and for the same reason, whatever that reason was.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Would be nice if we knew who the couple were. I'll take a punt on the identity of the man.

Charles Letchford, living at 30 Berner street, says:- "I passed through the street at half past 12, and everything seemed to me to be going on as usual, and my sister was standing at the door at ten minutes to one, but did not see anyone pass by. I heard the commotion when the body was found, and heard the policemen's whistles, but did not take any notice of the matter, as disturbances are very frequent at the club, and I thought it was only another row."

This would explain why Charles passed through the street at that time. So, what about the identity of the young woman? Quoting from the thread Letchford's Sister:

Christmas Day weddings were to be a feature for the family over the years and Charles was married on this day in 1889 to Sarah Ann Grant at Christ Church, Spitalfields.

The record gives the following details:
Charles Edward Michael Letchford, 24, Barman, 17 Hanbury St., father Edward Letchford, labourer

Sarah Ann Grant 22, 10 Booth St, father George Grant, bricklayer.

[Wickerman]

Booth Street is just off Brick Lane, Spitalfields.

This Sarah Grant, must be the girl seen by Brown?
The girl who walked up and down from 12:00-12:30, lived in Berner St., so she is not Sarah Grant, right? is this what you are saying?