Suspect Witnesses?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If you don't think that, then I misunderstand this statement of yours from post #204: "In those 10 minutes, Stride must make her way to the gateway, wait for BS Man, be killed, and her blood trickle down to the side door of club, and Fanny must be at her doorstep to see a man walk down the street carrying a black bag, but see no one enter the gates."

That is not a reference to what I believe. It's about the difficulty of making sense of the situation. People believe Schwartz and that Fanny witnessed Goldstein shortly before locking up just before 1am. Had Brown been correct that Stride was at the board school corner at about 12:50, it is difficult to see how she makes it into the yard, unseen, without any Schwartz incident. With Schwartz, the situation becomes difficult to the point that completely different scenarios have to be considered, for example #236.

I do agree that if the Schwartz incident occurred after the Brown sighting, then it would be hard for there to be enough time for anyone but BS man to be her killer, assuming that the woman in the Schwartz incident is Stride. About the only way that he wouldn't be her killer would be if he left the area immediately, and either Pipe Man or someone nearby that we don't know about killed her.

There is not enough time for Schwartz after 12:50.

[GBinOz]

How long had she been indoors when she heard the commotion? Perhaps seconds, but more likely she meant a minute or two. The young woman said:

"I met my young man at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate."

Hi Andrew,

This makes no sense to me. They walk along and back in Commercial Road and down Berner St. So they are standing down in Berner St, not inside, when they see a man walking along Commercial Rd in the direction of Aldgate. They can't have been far down Berner St, probably at the corner, to have noticed this perambulation, so they were a long way from Dutfields. Of what relevance then is a man walking along Commercial Rd??

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

No. That does not fit her statement.

Right.

... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial road.

She has spotted him from a long way off. The big question is, when was this?

He passed the club like any member of the public, and within 10 minutes of the murder, like most others in the case.

Does that fit her statement? I don't think it does. 'Previously' could refer to any time between 12:30 and 1am.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

This makes no sense to me. They walk along and back in Commercial Road and down Berner St. So they are standing down in Berner St, not inside, when they see a man walking along Commercial Rd in the direction of Aldgate. They can't have been far down Berner St, probably at the corner, to have noticed this perambulation, so they were a long way from Dutfields. Of what relevance then is a man walking along Commercial Rd??

Cheers, George

Hello George!

The first quote is Fanny Mortimer, not the young woman. I'm saying that the time it would take to walk down Berner St, is similar to the time between Fanny locking up and hearing the commotion.

Taken literally, the Echo report reads as if the couple walked most of the way down Berner St, then somehow, they see the man walking along Commercial Rd. What I'm saying is that the young woman's reference to "just before" gives then time to see the man, then the gentleman walks his lady friend home.

The man they saw "just before" saying good night to each other, is very likely of no relevance, as you suggest.

[Wickerman]

. . . They walk along and back in Commercial Road and down Berner St. So they are standing down in Berner St, not inside, when they see a man walking along Commercial Rd in the direction of Aldgate. They can't have been far down Berner St, probably at the corner, to have noticed this perambulation, so they were a long way from Dutfields. Of what relevance then is a man walking along Commercial Rd??

George.
The way I read it, a second ". and back again ." is implied, due to them being able to see a man walking in Commercial Rd.

Example:

"I met my young man at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street (and back again). No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate."

[Wickerman]

Does that fit her statement? I don't think it does. 'Previously' could refer to any time between 12:30 and 1am.

I mean the 10 minutes.

I wrote:
"He passed the club like any member of the public, and within 10 minutes of the murder, like most others in the case".

Almost all those we talk about; Schwartz, BS-man, Pipeman, Eagle, Lave, Diemshutz, PC Smith, the Sweetheart couple, etc.
I don't see the point in saying Goldstein passed within 10 minutes of the murder, as that applies to almost everybody.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

George.
The way I read it, a second ". and back again ." is implied, due to them being able to see a man walking in Commercial Rd.

Example:

"I met my young man at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street (and back again). No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate."

The old, implied words trick.

Swanson meant:
"If Schwartz is to be believed, and (if) the police report of his statement casts no doubt upon it, it follows....."

The important thing with this couple is that they were not the other couple. Who, when and where was the other couple, is the other important thing.

[GBinOz]

I don't see the point in saying Goldstein passed within 10 minutes of the murder, as that applies to almost everybody.

Hi Jon,

Not everybody was seen headed north with a black bag, an then headed south with a black bag. Goldstein acknowledged that he was the said person with the black bag, and offered an alibi that he was at the Spectacle Cafe, which was checked by police.

Detective to owner Spectacle Cafe: We're here to check if a Mr Goldstein was here on the night of the 30 September.

Owner Spectacle Cafe: Yes, I remember he called in to pick up some cigarette boxes.

Detective: How long was he here?

Owner: I don't know. It was a busy night and I just pointed him to where the cigarette boxes were stored.

A twelve minute round trip and a minute or two to ensure he was noticed. Not saying this is what happened. Just considering the possibilities.

Best regards, George

[The Rookie Detective]

Just after 23.55pm, the girl leaves her house on Berner Street, walks north and then past the yard at around 23.57pm, where she looks into the yard as she walks past it, and sees there's nobody in the yard. She heads North up Berner Street where she has prearranged to meet her young man at the corner of Commercial road at midnight. They take a brief walk along Commercial Road together, and then walk back again to the same corner of Commercial Road and Berner Street where they had met. A brief walk along the Commercial Road and back again, one would assume would take anywhere up to 20 minutes, seeing as a couple walking together are unlikely to walk fast, and so it would take them more time to cover a shorter distance.
It would have taken around 7 minutes to walk at an average pace to the western end of Commercial Road where the road meets Whitechapel Highstreet.
However, a couple walking together would walk more slowly, so let's say 8 minutes to reach the end of the Commercial Road. Then no more than 2 minutes to begin heading back to Berner St, which then takes another 8 minutes. They then reach the corner of Berner no later than 12.20am.
We can also be reasonably sure they headed north west from the corner of Berner St, because heading east in the other direction would have made it easier to return back to her house in the southern section of Berner Street via cutting down Christian St and then heading west along Fairclough St.
Note she doesn't mention going any further than Commercial Road, which would then make sense in the context of a brief walk.
That would place them back at the corner at which they met circa 12.20am, based on a short walk being based on a short distance, and not necessarily on time.
Hence a brief walk rather than a quick walk.

So let's recap...


23.56pm - the girl leaves her house to go and meet her young man at the top of Berner Street.

23.57pm - the girl walks past the murder site but sees no-one there. The yard is empty.

Midnight - the girl meets her young man at the top of Berner Street

00.08am - they reach the end of Commercial road

00.10am - they begin to walk back east along Commercial road.

00.18am - they reach the corner of Berner Street where they originally met.

(00.20am at the latest)



It's from THIS point that the story then divides into 3 possible options...

Option 1 - they wait on the corner of Commercial Road and Berner Street for around 20 minutes, doing what couples do. They hear or see nothing untoward. They then say "goodnight" circa 12.40am, and just as they do, a man walks along Commercial Road walking west towards Aldgate.
The couple then walk TOGETHER back down Berner St as the young man escorts her home to her house in Berner Street, meaning they BOTH walk BACK PAST Duffield's yard circa 12.43am.
The girl is home by 12.45am, and the young man walks BACK up Berner Street to go home himself. He arrives at the top of Berner St by 12.48am at the latest.

Option 2 - As above with option 1, but just after they say "goodnight" circa 12.40am and a man walks along Commercial road toward Aldgate, the girls walks BACK down BernerStreet ALONE, walking back past the murder site circa 12.43am and being indoors no later than 12.45am

Option 3 - after getting back to the corner of Berner and Commercial Road circa 12.20am, they see a man walk west along Commercial Road towards Aldgate. They then say "goodnight." They then walk down Berner Street TOGETHER. They walk past the murder site at 12.23am but even though they've said goodnight at the top of Berner Street; and rather than go straight home, the young man convinces her to stay with him a little longer. They walk around the corner and into Fairclough St, reaching the wall by the board school no later than 12.25am (so as not to be seen by the girls family from her house in Berner Street) They then stand on the corner and wait there for around 20 minutes, doing what couples do. They hear or see nothing untoward.
Then around 12.45am the man propositions his young lady, but she tells him "no, not tonight, some other night."
The girl goes to her house and get indoors no later than 12.47am.
The young man then heads North back up Berner Street, walking past the murder site no later than 12.47am and reaching the top of Berner Street no later than 12.50am.


I would suggest that one of these options is close to the truth.

Interestingly, option 3 means that the couple Brown saw weren't Stride, and that they were instead the same couple referred to as the young sweetheart couple who went for a walk along Commercial Road.
It also means there was only ONE couple.

Of course... we may have a young man being fobbed off by his GF after he tried to convince her to spend the night with him.
IIRC it was stated that the girl and Stride resembled each other.

And so...what if the young man was agitated and sexually frustrated, and as he walks north back up Berner Street and passes the yard at 12.47am and as he glimpses into the yard he spots Stride.
Call it a macabre sexual impulse, but could Stride have been the victim of a sudden rush of blood by a young man being told "no" by his GF just a few minutes earlier?

What if the man who cut Stride's throat never intended to mutilate her, and simply dispatched her within a few seconds out of a despicable sexual rage that took over him?
He cuts her throat at 12.47am and then just walks off after realising what he's done. And now she's dying and he feels exposed, he can't rape her either.

As he walks north back up Berner Street at 12.48am, he is heard by Mortimer as he walks past her door. He then sees Goldstein turn into the street and quickly nips into the alleyway between no.32 and no.30 and is out of sight just as Mortimer opens her door and sees Goldstein walk south at 12.50am.
Goldstein passes the murder site, but because he's on the East side of the street, he can't see into the yard and doesn't see Stride bleeding out.

Mortimer stands at her door for around 10 minutes and then goes inside.

The club then tell Goldstein to go to the police as he's innocent, but because the woman has been slain in their back yard, they hire a Jewish actor in Schwartz to come forward and give a story about a gentile shouting "Lipski" in a bid to try and distance themselves from the murder and because they can't be sure the killer wasn't a club member.
They hire Schwartz as an insurance policy just in case the police think they're involved.

The entire Schwartz story was made up.

And because Stride had worked for them at the club and had been seen talking to Joseph Lave carrying his parcel by a policeman in Pc Smith, they are even more worried that the club will be blamed for the murder.


But in reality, the killer is a man who was rejected by his GF for him wanting sex and her telling him "no, not tonight, some other night."
And the reason why Stride was in the yard?

She had only left the club just moments before the man sees her about to leave the yard.

Wrong place, wrong time.


This of course makes Stride a non-ripper victim.



Can you imagine

[c.d.]

The club then tell Goldstein to go to the police as he's innocent, but because the woman has been slain in their back yard, they hire a Jewish actor in Schwartz to come forward and give a story about a gentile shouting "Lipski" in a bid to try and distance themselves from the murder and because they can't be sure the killer wasn't a club member.

Lucky they had their emergency list of Jewish actors who would be willing to insert themselves into a murder investigation handy.

Can you imagine

Yes, but not nearly as good as you. You outdid yourself on this one, R.D.

c.d.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Not everybody was seen headed north with a black bag, an then headed south with a black bag. Goldstein acknowledged that he was the said person with the black bag, and offered an alibi that he was at the Spectacle Cafe, which was checked by police.

About what time do you suppose Goldstein headed north? Want to know if this scenario is compatible with James Brown seeing Stride.

The problem as I see it, relates to 'Mrs Artisan' saying this:

I should think I must have heard it if the poor creature screamed at all, for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police.

She must be inside long enough for Goldstein to walk to the cafe, get his cigarette boxes, and walk back from the cafe and down Berner St.

Mrs Artisan is also quoted as saying:

I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway.

These quotes do sound a lot like Mrs Mortimer:

I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by.

This (Mrs Artisan) however, does not:

I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.

He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially.

My initial 'solution' to this directional dilemma was to edit Fanny's reference to black bag man. From this:

... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road.

To this:

... the only man whom I had seen who had passed through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road.

Thus, hinting she had seen Goldstein twice.

[The Rookie Detective]

The club then tell Goldstein to go to the police as he's innocent, but because the woman has been slain in their back yard, they hire a Jewish actor in Schwartz to come forward and give a story about a gentile shouting "Lipski" in a bid to try and distance themselves from the murder and because they can't be sure the killer wasn't a club member.

Lucky they had their emergency list of Jewish actors who would be willing to insert themselves into a murder investigation handy.

Can you imagine

Yes, but not nearly as good as you. You outdid yourself on this one, R.D.

c.d.

The good thing for me, is that you only picked up on the Schwartz bit.

That suggests the rest of my idea wasn't too bad?

[Herlock Sholmes]

For Mrs Artisan read Fanny Mortimer