Suspect Witnesses?

[Wickerman]

And yet he was involved with the club itself, because Wess went with him to the police to give his statement.

And so, he did have a connection to the yard.

Chris, Goldstein did not go anywhere near Dutfields Yard - therefore, no connection to the events in the yard.

[Wickerman]

Which leads me to believe that Stride and Parcelman were further up Berner St than Smith remembered them being.

It's the way it is worded that is the problem.
If we read other press reports, Lave apparently said: " . . nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions."

Which tells us he did see people, but none of those people were acting suspiciously.
Which allows for Stride & Parcelman being there.

[Wickerman]

Agreed. It could hardly be clearer.



The notion that the other couple were seen by Mortimer from her doorstep, has been retired.

Oh right - silly me . . .

[Wickerman]

"We heard nothing whatever," she told a reporter this morning. "I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside then." "I met my young man (she proceeded) at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate." . .

The chronology in this statement tells us that the...

young girl passed the yard a few minutes before midnight.
This means the yard was situated between her residence and the corner of Commercial Road, where she met her BF.

That means that after the couple said "goodnight" that the young girl had to walk back again and back past the yard; ergo, the murder site.[/quote]

All agreed up to that point.

But, did she walk back down Berner Street alone (as she had on her way up Berner St to meet her BF on the corner of Berner St?
Or did she walk back down Berner St with her BF?

We have to assume she did, this was not the middle of the day when lots of people may have been coming and going.
Victorian customs for a female out at night would not permit her to be seen walking at night with a stranger.

Based on them seeing a man walk along Commercial Road towards Aldgate just before they said "goodnight," it would appear that they did indeed stay at the junction of Commercial Road.

Yes, they said goodnight at the Commercial St. end of Berner St.

BUT... the statement specially says ... and down Berner Street.
This is stated the context of them BOTH walking down Berner Street together.

I agree, I see where you are going.
Yes, they could have said goodnight at the bottom end of Berner St., the "just before" would then mean just before they turned to walk back down Berner St. to say goodnight at her door.

. . if that's the case, then it needs to be established on which corner the couple were standing for around "20 minutes"

Either the Commercial Road junction or the Fairclough St Junction.

This is where I have to disagree.
There are two paragraphs that deal with this couple (my couple #2), and they say nothing about standing around for 20 minutes.

I think it is only fair that you first establish all four paragraphs refer to one couple, before you use a statement belonging to the first couple, as if it was spoken by the second couple.
The hurdle you must remove is the second couple (first two paragraphs) suggest this couple were on the Fairclough corner both before, and after the murder, estimated as about 20 minutes - ie; 12:45-01:05 am)

Whereas, the first couple (third and fourth paragraphs) provide a time window of 12:00-12:30 am.

They may have indeed said "goodnight" at the top of the street, and thus wouldn't have been able to hear anything going on in the yard anyway.

It's just that I am surprised that a boyfriend would leave his girlfriend to walk home (down Berner St.) alone. Decency demands you walk your girlfriend to her door at the end of the date.

Which makes the statement of "We heard nothing whatever" as a rather pointless statement, unless they were standing at the junction of Fairclough Street.

Well, because that statement is offered at the beginning of the paragraph, it may mean 'we heard nothing, whatever, throughout the date walking up and down'.

The same statement is also pointless if the couple left the area by 12.30am.

The beginning of the third paragraph explains that remark:
"It is established almost beyond doubt that the poor creature met her death some time between twelve and one o'clock".

The third & fourth paragraphs did come from the same article, the Echo. So they are to be taken together.
The line is provided by the journalist, which tells us he was under the impression the murder took place between 12:00-01:00 am.

One source states the couple were no than than "20 yards" from the yard.
another source states no more than "50 yards" from the yard.

Which demonstrates the extent of assumption by the journalists - it is actually 20 yds (60ft) from Dutfields Yard, on the west side, to to the corner of Berner & Fairclough, on the east side.

It would appear more logical that the couple had gone by 12.30am, in which case, the couple on the corner seen by Brown were Stride and her killer.

You have yet to remove that hurdle, so we can't apply logic yet.

This is because Brown swore on oath he was almost certain it was Stride.

Like Mary Malcolm did?
Swearing an oath does not make your statement correct.

Schwartz on the other hand witnesses an assault BEFORE Brown's sighting, meaning that what BS man saw was essentially irrelevant anyway, in terms of chronology.

You certainly do have a problem including Schwartz's scenario, either Brown is wrong, or Schwartz, with regard to timing.

But of course, if the couple on the corner wasn't Stride, then the couple seen by Brown had to have been the same couple who are referred to as having been on the corner both before and after the murder, and who claimed "We heard nothing whatever."


And if they didn't hear anything...then the entire Schwartz incident didn't happen.

The trouble with the Stride murder, is that you can't have your cake and eat it.

If we accept everything we are told, then there were 4 different couples all trying to fit into the same narrative...

Brown's couple
Sweetheart couple
Packers couple
Stride and her killer.


Too many players in this game.

Yes.

So...after the girl said goodnight to her BF, she was either at the top of Berner Street, or on the corner by the boardschool in Fairclough st (out of sight but not audibility from the yard)...

...she then goes home alone.

Otherwise, she wouldn't have needed to say "goodnight" to her BF

Her house is located SOUTH of the yard, because on the way up to meet her BF, she PASSES the yard. (her words)

So, where did she live in Berner Street?

Unless of course she was still on the corner of the street with her BF after the murder?

Lots to unravel here still.

We only seem to have real conflict when we include Schwartz's statement.

[The Rookie Detective]

Chris, Goldstein did not go anywhere near Dutfields Yard - therefore, no connection to the events in the yard.

The front entrance to the club was closed at the time.
The side entrance to the club was through the yard
The entrance to that yard was on Berner Street
The club itself was on Berner Street.
The club's southern wall was in the yard.
Goldstein was a club member
Goldstein was seen walking past the club by Mortimer
Goldstein was seen within 10 minutes of the murder.
The murder occurred in the yard.
The only way into the club at the time of the murder, was through the yard.
Mortimer sees Goldstein walking "hurriedly"
Mortimer sees him look up at the club; ergo, in the direction of the club.
Goldstein doesn't see Mortimer.
Mortimer sees Goldstein when he's walking between her door and the club; ergo, south of her location.
Goldstein goes to the police and gives a statement
Wess, who runs the joint, accompanies him; ergo, he gets involved.
Goldstein is a member of the club.


The above is indicative of a man who had a connection to the yard by proxy.


There is of course a simpler explanation


Mortimer saw Goldstein walking "hurriedly" after he had just murdered Stride in the yard.
Members of the club then persuade Mortimer to say that he was seen BEFORE he got as far as the yard.


But the distance between the yard and Mortimer's house is a matter of around 20 yards.

That would take no more than 5 seconds to walk if someone was walking "hurriedly"

That also means that there was no more than a 5 second gap between Mortimer seeing Goldstein and him having passes the yard as he headed south.

But if we imagine the scene...

Mortimer opens her door and Goldstein is...?

Well he can't be within a few feet of her, because when she opened the door, he would have at least acknowledged that someone had opened their door.

But there's no suggestion that he was aware that Mortimer had seen him.

That means that Goldstein had to be a certain distance from Mortimer's door.

And yet she sees him walk hurriedly and look up at the club.

So he has to be between her house and the club AND also not close enough to her to realise she had seen him/or be aware of her presence as she was at her door.

That then reduces the 20 yard window considerably.


And so... COULD Mortimer have assumed Goldstein had walked past her door and then past the club etc.. when he had instead just left the yard and Mortimer saw him at the precise moment he was back on the pavement?

Does Mortimer's interpretation of what she thought she saw inadvertently get Goldstein off the hook?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I realise that I’m jumping in and that I haven’t read back through the posts except for a skim but surely the woman that spoke to Mortimer had to have been Edward Spooner’s lady friend?

[The Rookie Detective]

Chris, Goldstein did not go anywhere near Dutfields Yard - therefore, no connection to the events in the yard.

The front entrance to the club was closed at the time.
The side entrance to the club was through the yard
The entrance to that yard was on Berner Street
The club itself was on Berner Street.
The club's southern wall was in the yard.
Goldstein was a club member
Goldstein was seen walking past the club by Mortimer
Goldstein was seen within 10 minutes of the murder.
The murder occurred in the yard.
The only way into the club at the time of the murder, was through the yard.
Mortimer sees Goldstein walking "hurriedly"
Mortimer sees him look up at the club; ergo, in the direction of the club.
Goldstein doesn't see Mortimer.
Mortimer sees Goldstein when he's walking between her door and the club; ergo, south of her location.
Goldstein goes to the police and gives a statement
Wess, who runs the joint, accompanies him; ergo, he gets involved.
Goldstein is a member of the club.


The above is indicative of a man who had a connection to the yard by proxy.


There is of course a simpler explanation


Mortimer saw Goldstein walking "hurriedly" after he had just murdered Stride in the yard.
Members of the club then persuade Mortimer to say that he was seen BEFORE he got as far as the yard.


But the distance between the yard and Mortimer's house is a matter of around 20 yards.

That would take no more than 5 seconds to walk if someone was walking "hurriedly"

That also means that there was no more than a 5 second gap between Mortimer seeing Goldstein and him having passes the yard as he headed south.

But if we imagine the scene...

Mortimer opens her door and Goldstein is...?

Well he can't be within a few feet of her, because when she opened the door, he would have at least acknowledged that someone had opened their door.

But there's no suggestion that he was aware that Mortimer had seen him.

That means that Goldstein had to be a certain distance from Mortimer's door.

And yet she sees him walk hurriedly and look up at the club.

So he has to be between her house and the club AND also not close enough to her to realise she had seen him/or be aware of her presence as she was at her door.

That then reduces the 20 yard window considerably.


And so... COULD Mortimer have assumed Goldstein had walked past her door and then past the club etc.. when he had instead just left the yard and Mortimer saw him at the precise moment he was back on the pavement?

Does Mortimer's interpretation of what she thought she saw inadvertently get Goldstein off the hook?

[The Rookie Detective]

Posts 230 and 232 are duplicates, sorry!

Not sure what happened there?!

[Lewis C]

Do I think that?

Perhaps read #157 again.

Switching Schwartz and Goldstein around causes several problems, the most obvious being that you must suppose the BS was the killer, with all the associated problems.

If you don't think that, then I misunderstand this statement of yours from post #204: "In those 10 minutes, Stride must make her way to the gateway, wait for BS Man, be killed, and her blood trickle down to the side door of club, and Fanny must be at her doorstep to see a man walk down the street carrying a black bag, but see no one enter the gates."

I do agree that if the Schwartz incident occurred after the Brown sighting, then it would be hard for there to be enough time for anyone but BS man to be her killer, assuming that the woman in the Schwartz incident is Stride. About the only way that he wouldn't be her killer would be if he left the area immediately, and either Pipe Man or someone nearby that we don't know about killed her.

[Wickerman]

The front entrance to the club was closed at the time.
The side entrance to the club was through the yard
The entrance to that yard was on Berner Street
The club itself was on Berner Street.
The club's southern wall was in the yard.
Goldstein was a club member
Goldstein was seen walking past the club by Mortimer
Goldstein was seen within 10 minutes of the murder.
The murder occurred in the yard.
The only way into the club at the time of the murder, was through the yard.
Mortimer sees Goldstein walking "hurriedly"
Mortimer sees him look up at the club; ergo, in the direction of the club.
Goldstein doesn't see Mortimer.
Mortimer sees Goldstein when he's walking between her door and the club; ergo, south of her location.
Goldstein goes to the police and gives a statement
Wess, who runs the joint, accompanies him; ergo, he gets involved.
Goldstein is a member of the club.


The above is indicative of a man who had a connection to the yard by proxy.

Which, to be realistic Chris, means nothing.
You say he was a member of the club, but that is irrelevant when he wasn't at the club that night.
Club access is irrelevant to someone on the other side of the street.
He passed the club like any member of the public, and within 10 minutes of the murder, like most others in the case.
You can't assume he didn't see Mortimer, though if he did it makes no difference.
And why do you assume Mortimer saw Goldstein between her door and the club, if he was on the opposite side?


You & I both know Mortimer did not say which side of Berner St. Goldstein walked down.
But, as attentive as she was towards this man, she did not say he crossed the road.
Taken at face value then, we can accept Goldstein walked down the east side, looked up at the club as he passed (music, singing?), and turned around the corner by the Board School. He was after all heading east to Christian St., so it makes sense he would be on the east side of Berner St., keeping on the same side all the way down.
Which means, he had no contact with the Club on the west side of the street, which in turn makes all you wrote above irrelevant.

Swanson's note provides no more detail to help on that question.

There is of course a simpler explanation

Mortimer saw Goldstein walking "hurriedly" after he had just murdered Stride in the yard.

the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial road.

To you, that sound like he came out of Dutfields Yard?
He couldn't walk passed the club then, could he.

And so... COULD Mortimer have assumed Goldstein had walked past her door and then past the club etc..

No. That does not fit her statement.

[GBinOz]

Thanks, yes it removes all three, so we are left with Parcelman as the last person seen with Stride before her murder.
The police acknowledged this as he was then identified as a leading suspect.

Morris Eagle, as we know came back to the club about 12:40, and said there likely were people around but didn't take any notice.
He entered the club through the yard door, then went up to join in the singing until someone came up around 1:00 am to say there was a body in the yard.
It doesn't seem practical to suggest Eagle, after walking his sweetheart home, would then return to the club and slash a woman's throat, before heading upstairs to join a sing-song.

Joseph Lave, apparently came out of the club side door to stand in the street about 12:30 am, stood around for 10 minutes, then returned to the club by the same side door at roughly 12:40.
He saw no-one or nothing suspicious.



Suspecting Goldstein is too much of a stretch, he passed through the street, had no connection with Dutfields Yard.



Yes, stated times are mostly estimates, and primarily based on the quarter-hour chime of church bells.

Hi Jon,

As you know I hold your opinion in high regard. I would agree that Eagle has no role in your alternate street hypothesis, but if Schwartz instead did walk down Berner St, I look at Eagle as a possible BSMan, but not as the killer. I have tried to work his times but find that there is a time gap where his whereabouts are unknown. Maybe he went home, which was on his way back, or maybe he visited a Public House for a libation or two? I think that on his return he encountered Stride in the gateway and, thinking that she was soliciting, attempted to encourage her to leave. I think he got a shock when he saw that the dead woman was the one with whom he had this altercation, even though he didn't kill her.

With regard to Goldstein, I do not share your opinion. I maintain my belief that Mortimer and Mrs Artisan were different people. Mrs Artisan reached the yard when there were "only two or three people" present. Mortimer said that "on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gate with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm". This is a reference to Spooner who said that there were about 15 people present when he arrived. Mrs Artisan saw Goldstein headed North to establish an alibi at the Spectacle Cafe (12 minute return trip) and Mortimer saw him return and glance to check if the body had been discovered....Maybe???

Never the less, I continue to maintain an open mind and to consider persons of interest without nominating a suspect.

Best regards, George

[GBinOz]

You say he was a member of the club, but that is irrelevant when he wasn't at the club that night.

Hi Jon,

Could you please clarify how you know this to be a fact?

Cheers, George

[The Rookie Detective]

"We heard nothing whatever," she told a reporter this morning. "I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside then." "I met my young man (she proceeded) at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate."


Now imagine that the young man she met was...


Pc Smith



Just a thought

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It's the way it is worded that is the problem.
If we read other press reports, Lave apparently said: " . . nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions."

Which tells us he did see people, but none of those people were acting suspiciously.
Which allows for Stride & Parcelman being there.

So, let's assume Lave was right about going back inside at about 12:40 (or possibly later). Going back to your post #191 re a couple at the board school corner ....

Not really, it depends when Mortimer spoke to them.
Mortimer would not have walked over to the corner, she became too preoccupied with the body in the yard.

More likely, once the commotion transpired, that second 'sweetheart' couple came over to the yard and spoke with Mortimer.

If you recall, Mortimer said she eventually came out after 1:00am, and Diemschutz said he passed the Tobacconists clock at the top of the street at 1:00 am.
So it was a minute or two after 1:00 when he pulled into the yard. He had to go in the club and raise the alarm, then the commotion began.
Mortimer heard the cart arrive, she heard the commotion, so it must have been near 1:05 by the time she came out.

If you want to be precise about the "20 min" estimate, then 12:45 to 1:05 is 20 minutes.
The sweetheart couple could have just arrived as James Brown entered the Chandlers shop. He only saw them on leaving the shop.

There is no problem in that scenario.

If Mortimer arrives at the yard at 1:05, then Smith cannot be there until as late as 1:10. His 25–30-minute beat therefore places him last in Berner St at between 12:40 and 12:45. The couple arrive at the corner, by the above timing, at about 12:45, and remain until the alarm is raised. Therefore, the 'window of opportunity' for any shenanigans at the gateway, is virtually zero.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes, they said goodnight at the Commercial St. end of Berner St.

...

It's just that I am surprised that a boyfriend would leave his girlfriend to walk home (down Berner St.) alone. Decency demands you walk your girlfriend to her door at the end of the date.

I think he did walk her to her door (on Berner St, south of Fairclough St). It comes down to the interpretation of the phrase 'just before'. Consider Fanny's words:

I had just gone indoors and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' club close by.

How long had she been indoors when she heard the commotion? Perhaps seconds, but more likely she meant a minute or two. The young woman said:

"I met my young man at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate."

Just before they said their good nights, they were at the top of Berner St. That is when they see the man going along Commercial Rd, heading toward Aldate. A minute or two later the couple have gone down Berner St, to the young lady's door. Her "just before" is of a similar timespan to Fanny's just after.