A closer look at Leon Goldstein

[Michael W Richards]

Irish Times, Oct 1.

The city police adopt the view that the miscreant for whom they are searching is a man of a different class to that which he has hitherto been supposed to have been a member. They point to a fact that women of the street obviously yield readily to his solicitation, and draw the inference that he is a person of respectable appearance, and by no means the rough uncouth creature which the popular imagination has depicted him.

Presumably you would disagree.

Its at this point in time during that spree of murders that the assumed profile, which had been a poor, immigrant local Jew, became a more genteel and posh Top hat and Cloak kind of guy. Im not sure if the quote above reflects that, but it seems to me that Fannys black bag man would be known around town pretty quickly. The quote even references the previously adopted profile in the bold underlined section.

[Michael W Richards]

I agree that none of us know exactly what happened, but I do know that the examining physician on the scene said at the Inquest that...."I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way. The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground."

c.d.

Its a percentages game cd, the absolutes are few and far between. The best you can hope for is a reasonable and logical reconstruction using the knowns and some hunch or intuition at work to understand it all better. I think in this case the very fact that at the Inquest the doctor put his thoughts on the matter on the table is I believe relevant. Perhaps he was using intuition and experience to fill in any questions he may have had. But the physical condition of Liz Stride as described by multiple witnesses aligns perfectly well with his hypothesis, and Im inclined to side with him, as an amateur I defer to the experts. Unless I get a hunch.

[Michael W Richards]

So Michael, you are saying Leon Goldstein murdered Elizabeth Stride but not the other victims.

Ive seen you suggest that statement being made by someone else just recently, and they didnt remember ever stating that here. As I do not. But since the question is there, I believe that Fanny Mortimer saw Leon as he approached and passed by the open gates, so no, I dont see him as the killer. But I do believe that when he passed by the men were around Liz, and had been for a few minutes prior. I believe he saw that, and scurried along.

I just had a thought....at that time we have Fanny stating she saw Mr Black Bag and we dont know who that was, I wonder if the "scurrying on home" aspect in Israels story, (which was given Sunday night..2 full days before Leon owns up to the fact), is a result of someone seeing someone scurry by the open gates at a very bad time. So Israel comes in, with Wess as translator, and incorporates that "scurrying on home" element knowing that there was someone unaffiliated with the club who saw Leon too. Another witness to validate his story...sort of.

I also had another thought...good coffee this morning....not directly related, but Wess says he went out the front door when he left for the evening. Morris says the door was locked when he returned to the club, which is why he went into the alleyway. Would it be common for someone to lock the door after someone had left, with 20-30 men still there? You have to assume people would still be coming and going with that many still hanging out. Out for a smoke, leaving, coming back after seeing to the Mrs.....I doubt I personally would consider it essential that the door be locked immediately after someone leaves, or that it would be locked at all until very few were left there. Pain in the butt having to constantly re-lock the door. And with 20-30 people there, a deserted street, whose going to break in anyway?

[The Rookie Detective]

Ive seen you suggest that statement being made by someone else just recently, and they didnt remember ever stating that here. As I do not. But since the question is there, I believe that Fanny Mortimer saw Leon as he approached and passed by the open gates, so no, I dont see him as the killer. But I do believe that when he passed by the men were around Liz, and had been for a few minutes prior. I believe he saw that, and scurried along.

I just had a thought....at that time we have Fanny stating she saw Mr Black Bag and we dont know who that was, I wonder if the "scurrying on home" aspect in Israels story, (which was given Sunday night..2 full days before Leon owns up to the fact), is a result of someone seeing someone scurry by the open gates at a very bad time. So Israel comes in, with Wess as translator, and incorporates that "scurrying on home" element knowing that there was someone unaffiliated with the club who saw Leon too. Another witness to validate his story...sort of.

I also had another thought...good coffee this morning....not directly related, but Wess says he went out the front door when he left for the evening. Morris says the door was locked when he returned to the club, which is why he went into the alleyway. Would it be common for someone to lock the door after someone had left, with 20-30 men still there? You have to assume people would still be coming and going with that many still hanging out. Out for a smoke, leaving, coming back after seeing to the Mrs.....I doubt I personally would consider it essential that the door be locked immediately after someone leaves, or that it would be locked at all until very few were left there. Pain in the butt having to constantly re-lock the door. And with 20-30 people there, a deserted street, whose going to break in anyway?

Yes, that's an excellent point.


Of course, by Eagle stating the street entrance was locked, it means he had to use the yard side door; or have an excuse for using the yard side door.

Eagle states he never saw anyone in the yard, meaning Stride was already laying dead in the dark and he didn't see her, she hadn't got into the yard yet, or he lied.

And then there's Lave who comes out to grab some fresh air etc... he doesn't see anyone, and yet he was outside around the same time Eagle and Stride should have been there based on timings.
Lave even went as far as the street but saw nobody.

Strange that.


RD

[Paddy Goose]

Good morning Michael,

...no, I dont see him as the killer. ...

Thank you for your answer.

This thread is about Leon Goldstein being the serial killer. Since it is placed in the section titled -

Suspects
Discussion of the various individuals who have been suggested as being Jack the Ripper.

[Paddy Goose]

Hi Paddy. If you want to consider the possible relationship between Goldstein and Schwartz, start at #207 and see related following posts.

Thank you,

Yes I read through some of that. So if Israel Schwartz was a "plant" sent forward to mislead the investigation, who do you suggest were the plants in the other murders? Could it be Richardson in the Chapman murder? Was Lechmere a plant for the Nichols murder? And so on.

Because you placed your thread in the section titled

Suspects
Discussion of the various individuals who have been suggested as being Jack the Ripper.

You are in fact proposing Leon Goldstein was Jack the Ripper, the serial killer. Right?

[Michael W Richards]

I note Paddy that you have been here since 2008. Surely you know that threads often have tangential elements that also get discussed on the same threads, though not necessarily directly related to the specific thread question or statement. They usually meander back onto the topic.

Now, on this post #366 directed at NBFN, it reads as if a snide commentary on the idea that Schwartz's story was intentionally managed to present an off site, likely gentile, assailant. To ease any concerns the club may have had about its continued operations, and perhaps to keep police from looking too carefully at these men and the club. You may recall that these are the same men that attack police with clubs in the Spring of 89, and who get arrested doing so. And toss in an antisemetic shout...beauty.

Since Israel's story as given suggests the most probable culprit is someone completely unconnected with the club, and was just passing by on the street, its clearly a position that would benefit these club members. Suddenly there are 2 more men around that no-one saw, both from off the property, and there is the soon to be victim being assaulted off site, mere feet and minutes from where and when she will be killed. The adage "seems too good to be true" may well be applicable here.

As for the snide bit, I cant speak for NBFN, but what applies to this case and its witnesses doesnt automatically extend to any other alledged Ripper cases, witnesses or alleged suspects. This is about a witness in a murder. The panic caused by the suggestion of any kind of conspiracy involved with these cases always presumes the broader Conspiracy questions....did police conspire to withhold information, was this activity related to Fenian groups, was anyone protecting anyone... withholding info...yada, yada.

The foundation for questioning the integrity of the information given by some club sources is that they were well aware that the general consensus by the authorities before Fanny's posh bag man is introduced was that the killer they sought was a poor immigrant Jew in the neighbourhood, the neighbours and police described this as an Anarchist, not Socialist club....which is why William Morris backed out of speaking there that night, and that no witness before Israel came in saw anyone else on that street after 12:35. The club men were the only men within striking distance of that passageway, and they could do so unseen from the street. So, they realized suspicions would be on them, at least initially.

Would it be inconsistent with what is known about human behaviour that witnesses might alter some story details to try and preserve their own skins, or show themselves in the best light possible? And example might be Hutchinson claiming that what he was doing was making sure his "friend" was ok, when in reality we dont know if he knew Mary at all and what that Wideawake Hat man seems to be doing is spying or stalking. But he paints his presence there as benign....too late to prevent the authorities from considering that person to be an accomplice...which they apparently did, based on Warrens Issuance Saturday.

So, is it possible that the reason Hutchinson came forward at all is because someone was concerned about the authorities suspicions of an accomplice? After the story....Wideawake is just benign ol Hutchinson, pal of Mary, and just trying to help.......4 days late.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

An Irish Times reporter was on Berner St around dawn on the morning of the double event:

In order to inquire further into these matters, the reporter next visited the club referred to , a rather low class little building covered with posters, most of them in the Hebrew language. Mrs Lewis, wife of the steward, as she explained, was standing at the door in the centre of a host of people, but she declined to call on her husband, who had been up all night, and had only just gone to bed. Pressed to speak as to the character of the club, Mrs Lewis was inclined to be retired, but a young man in the crowd volunteered an explanation of the institution. "You see," he explained, "the members are bad Jews - Jews who do not heed their religion, and they annoy those who do in order to show contempt for the religion. In the Black Fast a week or two ago, for instance, they had a banquet, and ostentatiously ate and drank, while we might do neither. They hold concerts there till early in the morning, and women and girls are brought there." "Were they here last night?" asked the reporter. "No" said Mrs Lewis, "there was only a concert and discussion on last night."

This is what happened two weekends prior...

14 Star, September 14, 1888. 'Freethinking Jews and the Black Fast. The Workers' Friend, the Hebrew Socialist paper, of this week, announces that as a protest against the Jewish religion and the Day of Atonement, the Jewish Socialists and Freethinkers have organised a banquet for tomorrow, which will take place at the International Working Men's Club, 40, Berner street, Commercial road. Speeches will be delivered in various languages. The announcement has caused much excitement amongst the orthodox Jews, and it is rumored that a disturbance may take place at the banquet. If so, the members of the International Working Men's Club state that they are prepared, and the aid of the police will not be called in to assist in quelling it. This banquet is unprecedented in Jewish history.'

Star, September 17, 1888.
'A Feast on a Fast Leads to a Riot. While the orthodox Jews of the East end were on Saturday celebrating the Day of Atonement by fasting and prayer, the Socialist and Freethinking Hebrews held a banquet at the International Working Men's Club, Berner street, where speeches were made pointing out that the miseries and degradation of the people were not due to any Divine power, but that they were caused by the capitalists, who monopolised all the means of production and paid starvation wages. The orthodox Jews took great umbrage at this banquet, and assembled in Berner street in great numbers. The windows of the club were smashed, and when three of the men in the club went out to secure the man who did the damage, they were very roughly handled, till about a hundred of their colleagues went to their assistance. The police subsequently dispersed the mob, and guarded the club till a late hour.'


In fact IWMC socialists were actually attacked by religious zealots who were joined by police and were prosecuted for defending themselves.

Curious about this part - The windows of the club were smashed, and when three of the men in the club went out to secure the man who did the damage, they were very roughly handled, till about a hundred of their colleagues went to their assistance. I just wonder if Stride was caught in the yard with a man, and someone got overzealous.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes, that's an excellent point.


Of course, by Eagle stating the street entrance was locked, it means he had to use the yard side door; or have an excuse for using the yard side door.

Eagle states he never saw anyone in the yard, meaning Stride was already laying dead in the dark and he didn't see her, she hadn't got into the yard yet, or he lied.

And then there's Lave who comes out to grab some fresh air etc... he doesn't see anyone, and yet he was outside around the same time Eagle and Stride should have been there based on timings.
Lave even went as far as the street but saw nobody.

Strange that.


RD

Here's a theory about what Lave was actually doing when he went outside.

Irish Times: ...the reporter next visited the club referred to, a rather low class little building covered with posters, most of them in the Hebrew language.

Joseph Lave: About twenty minutes before the alarm I went down into the yard to get a breath of fresh air. I walked about for five minutes or more, and went as far as the street.

As you know, the Arbeter Fraint offices were in the back of the yard, and there had been a big event at the club that night. Presumably the club had posters up, advertising the event.

PC Smith re Stride's companion: He had a parcel wrapped in a newspaper in his hand. The parcel was about 18in. long and 6in. to 8in. broad.

Was Lave changing some of the posters?

Sample of the material produced on site.

[New Waterloo]

Michael is talking a lot of sense when he talks of people preserving their own skins. I would that the relationship between the members of the club and the police in general would shall we say not be great. We have to understand that perhaps many of the members would have arrived in Britain after perhaps being persecuted by the authorities in their home countries. Some state operators in others countries could be brutal not like the British Police even in 1888. However many would be suspicious and uncooperative with any police enquiry (not all of course) It is reasonable to suggest that some would say ' didn't hear or see anything' just because they just didn't want to get involved with the authorities. Maybe as simple as that. There are many today who just do not want to get involved.

On another note I think we have to move away from the idea that seems to prevail that Berner Street was some quiet street with hardly anyone around. There was singing no doubt shouting, drinking of alcohol and many comings and goings. I still think its a daft place for our JTR to plan a murder

NW

[The Rookie Detective]

Michael is talking a lot of sense when he talks of people preserving their own skins. I would that the relationship between the members of the club and the police in general would shall we say not be great. We have to understand that perhaps many of the members would have arrived in Britain after perhaps being persecuted by the authorities in their home countries. Some state operators in others countries could be brutal not like the British Police even in 1888. However many would be suspicious and uncooperative with any police enquiry (not all of course) It is reasonable to suggest that some would say ' didn't hear or see anything' just because they just didn't want to get involved with the authorities. Maybe as simple as that. There are many today who just do not want to get involved.

On another note I think we have to move away from the idea that seems to prevail that Berner Street was some quiet street with hardly anyone around. There was singing no doubt shouting, drinking of alcohol and many comings and goings. I still think its a daft place for our JTR to plan a murder

NW

The single contributing factor that supports Stride as a Ripper victim is the Double Event implied in a written correspondence alleged to have been written by the Ripper.

Outside of that, it all feels more like the club used the murder of Stride to draw attention to the club. That may sound odd, but it's the old adage that there's no such thing as bad press.

Stride may have been set up and brought into a trap. What better way to put the club into the newspapers by having Jack choosing their yard as a location to slay one of his victims.

Could that have been why the Ripper then placed a piece of Eddowes apron underneath some recently chalked words aka the GSG?
In the same way that a dodgy parent might say to their child who's apparently crying to get attention
" If you're gonna cry, I will give you something to cry about"
In other words..."If you (Jews) want to be blamed for something, then I (the Ripper) will give you something to be blamed for!" (By placing a piece of bloodied apron underneath the GSG)


The more we look at Stride, the less it feels as though she was a Ripper victim.

As an aside, the Torso killer chose the same weekend to dig up/move/expose his Whitehall victim.

I am a supporter of the idea that the Torso killer and the Ripper were the same man, and so I view the real double event as the moving of the Torso closely followed by the murder of Eddowes.

How would it impact on the killer route IF Stride was never part of the series and simply had her throat cut by either Lave, Eagle, Goldstein or Diemschultz to make it look like a Ripper killing?

Whoever cut her throat was either disturbed or didn't have the brass to finish the job.

It is also important to establish WHEN and WHO first suggested Stride as a Ripper victim?

Did the club realise the significance of Stride being incorrectly identified as a Ripper victim, and then saw an opportunity to gain some press attention by getting involved posthumously via Goldstein and/or Schwartz?

Let's also acknowledge that the method that Stride was dispatched was unlike the Ripper.
Stride has a solitary deep cut and yet despite her face being muddied, her clothes did not appear disheveled or disturbed.
For me, that implies that killer held her from behind and slowly drew the knife across her throat. The cut was more slow deliberate and methodical than it was savage and brutal.
The cut Stride suffered tallies more with a professional kill, a soldier or a hired killer. She was placed onto the floor and the Cachou placed in her hand by her killer.
If the Ripper has killed her, she would have been cut twice across the throat and incurred other cuts.

I've never really bought the idea that Diemschultz cart interrupted the Ripper.
The only way I can see Stride having been an authentic Ripper victim, is if Diemschultz had indeed interrupted him. Outside of that, I can't see how the killer was the Ripper.

RD

[c.d.]

The more we look at Stride, the less it feels as though she was a Ripper victim.

Whoa, easy there cowboy. Please don't include me as part of the "we." I'm sure many others feel the same way.

c.d.

[c.d.]

If the Ripper has killed her, she would have been cut twice across the throat and incurred other cuts.

We can't say that with any degree of certainty.

I've never really bought the idea that Diemschultz cart interrupted the Ripper.
The only way I can see Stride having been an authentic Ripper victim, is if Diemschultz had indeed interrupted him.

If an interruption occurred it needn't have been caused by Diemshutz.

Outside of that, I can't see how the killer was the Ripper.

If we accept Eddowes as a Ripper victim, then we know the Ripper was out that night killing. He could have been at Berner Street as well and the time and distance involved are not a problem. We have a lone woman with ties to prostitution killed by a cut to the throat with no evidence of an apparent motive. Yes, the lack of mutilation is problematic but I think that is reasonably explained by a possible interruption. It's speculation but his frustration at being unable to finish his work with Stride could explain why Eddowes was so horribly mutilated. To me, this all says this was the Ripper's work.

c.d.

[c.d.]

I still think its a daft place for our JTR to plan a murder.

But do we know it was planned? What if the desire to kill got the better of him and clear thinking went out the window?

c.d.

[New Waterloo]

In my opinion CD has made a very important statement. Something which helps us with the profile/character of JTR. If we can satisfy ourselves that the club yard was too much of a risk for somebody to 'plan' an attack (even if the planning is a few minutes before the murder) then the significance of CDs statement can be seen and that is that if it was the serial killer JTR who killed Stride then maybe he was not fully in control of his mental state.

his would narrow down suspects. In other words it would remove the thinking organized, fully functioning suspect. I am fairly new but many of you will know who these are and we are left with a killer where as CD says maybe 'the desire to kill got the better of him' I am probably talking a load of rubbish but it seems a possible way to get just a little inside into this persons mental state.

Even the Yorkshire Ripper with all his desires considered locations and individuals and held back until he felt safe enough to wickedly murder those poor girls

NW