A closer look at Leon Goldstein

[Paddy Goose]

Have you confused me with another poster, Paddy? I don't believe I have ever commented before on Goldstein.

c.d.

No I have not confused you with another poster, c.d. but if I led you to that conclusion, please accept my apologies. No, you made the most recent post, I simply asked your opinion and you gave it, thank you.

Then I searched and actually found the profile of Leon Goldstein from earlier this month and I quoted it. My comments were in regards to Rookie D's post. When I said

So you include Leon Goldstein as the radical element of the club, whose members launch a coverup

I was addressing the Rookie.

Because I was searching, trying to find Leon Goldstein actually mentioned in the recent ten to twenty pages and I found it.

Paddy

[NotBlamedForNothing]

As for Lizzie, I dont think that killer had to be sober, careful, cautious, compelled....he reacted to Liz pissing him off just like a thug might do.

Irish Times, Oct 1.

The city police adopt the view that the miscreant for whom they are searching is a man of a different class to that which he has hitherto been supposed to have been a member. They point to a fact that women of the street obviously yield readily to his solicitation, and draw the inference that he is a person of respectable appearance, and by no means the rough uncouth creature which the popular imagination has depicted him.

Presumably you would disagree.

[c.d.]

I agree that none of us know exactly what happened, but I do know that the examining physician on the scene said at the Inquest that...."I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way. The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground."

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Stride was killed with a cut to the throat. I see no significance whatsoever whether it was one cut or two or was somehow different from previous cuts. It accomplished its intended purpose did it not? Would Stride be any more dead with two cuts than she was with one?

Do you really believe that consistency with the cuts would have been foremost in his mind if her killer was Jack?

c.d.

Not in the cuts, but in the way he behaved with victims, yes.

[Michael W Richards]

The problem, Michael is that neither you (nor any other poster for that matter) knows the exact details of how the actual murder of Stride went down. Is it possible that as Jack was going for the second knife cut that she was somehow able to lift her arm to block it? Could her scarf have gotten in the way of a second cut? Could Jack have dropped his knife after the first cut and after stopping to retrieve it realized that she was already dying and so there was no need for a second cut? Just way too many possibilities to consider. I think saying it couldn't have been Jack because he only cut once is extremely simplistic.

c.d.

I agree that none of us know exactly what happened, but I do know that the examining physician on the scene said at the Inquest that...."I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way. The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground."

Thats why I wrote what I did cd, it has support by the first man who examined her on the scene. Not one of your proposed scenarios above was mentioned by anyone, yet the scenario I mentioned, was.

You are very reluctant to credit the police and physicians when they make statements that you personally dont agree with, but they, by far, are much more equipped with the training, and experience and first hand knowledge, that you or I lack. You may not like envisioning the scenario Blackwell paints...and that Ive repeated in similar fashion, but it comes from a man who knew and saw what he was talking about. The indications are, based on Dr Blackwell and the crime scene evidence, that Liz was grabbed by her scarf, it was twisted and pulled tight, and he slid a knife across her thoat perhaps while letting go of the scarf. And she remained as she fell, there was no movement by her, or of her by the killer beyond that point.

Now....look at Annie, and Polly. Subdued silently without any knife use, lain on the ground, then 2 deep throat cuts that sever all the arteries..deep enough to nick their vertebrae, then the legs spread and the abdominal area exposed for the mutilations. Liz....choked with her own twisted scarf, pulled off balance, likely cut while falling, then left to lie on her side, legs drawn in...boot tops barely visible. I added that last detail to show that he didnt even lift the skirt, let alone flip her on her back and spread her legs.

What youd like is for this to be a Ripper murder without any ripping, without the probability of being able to do any mutilations, without the preparation of the body for further atrocities, and that he arrives magically after BSM leaves her. Well buddy,...does that really seem the most probable interpretation of the actual physical evidence? In actuality you cant even eliminate the possibility that BSM didnt just stay and kill her himself. For me, there likely was no BSM on the street in front of the gates anyway, but someone like him from that property will suffice. No real skill requirements for this murder....yet in Annies murder the physician remarked just how long he would have taken to do the same injuries he saw, and he said that any less than skilled cuts were likely just due to haste.

In Liz's case, he would have had maybe minutes to make one cut that only severs one artery. Thats why the 2 second event suggested by Blackwell makes sense. Jack was never a 2 second guy....my opinion. Why just kill someone? It appears that he killed so he could cut.

[c.d.]

The problem, Michael is that neither you (nor any other poster for that matter) knows the exact details of how the actual murder of Stride went down. Is it possible that as Jack was going for the second knife cut that she was somehow able to lift her arm to block it? Could her scarf have gotten in the way of a second cut? Could Jack have dropped his knife after the first cut and after stopping to retrieve it realized that she was already dying and so there was no need for a second cut? Just way too many possibilities to consider. I think saying it couldn't have been Jack because he only cut once is extremely simplistic.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Thanks, c.d.

Okay so here is Goldstein accused of the Stride murder, courtesy of Rookie D-



So you include Leon Goldstein as the radical element of the club, whose members launch a coverup including someone portraying a Schwartz, who was, after all, said to be in in the threatrical line.

Have you confused me with another poster, Paddy? I don't believe I have ever commented before on Goldstein.

c.d.

[Paddy Goose]

Thanks, c.d.

Okay so here is Goldstein accused of the Stride murder, courtesy of Rookie D-

Imagine a scenario whereby Goldstein has just slashed Stride's throat and headed north, but then as he nears Fanny's door he hears her open the door and so he quickly turns around and hurriedly walks back past the club, glimpsing towards it to make sure he hasn't been spotted
Fanny witnesses him walking south past the club and around the corner, but could have missed him walking north towards her just moments before she looked out her door.
Goldstein then goes to the club for help and Wess covers his back.
To be doubly sure, they invent a stereotypical Jewish looking character in Schwartz, who goes to the police and concocts a completely fabricated story of BS man and Pipeman and an assault on Stride that never happened; creating a false anti-semitic slur to draw focus away from the club.

Goldstein slits her throat for whatever reason, but the point being that the club help to cover their tracks by inventing Schwartz, who could have been played by anyone loyal to the club.

As a non-Jewish woman who speaks Yiddish and who is standing outside the club, Stride may have been slain by the radical element of the club who may have thought Stride was an informant.


RD

So you include Leon Goldstein as the radical element of the club, whose members launch a coverup including someone portraying a Schwartz, who was, after all, said to be in in the threatrical line.

[c.d.]

Good afternoon c.d., do you believe Leon Goldstein murdered Elizabeth Stride?

It is possible of course, but I have no reason to believe so.

c.d.

[Paddy Goose]

Good afternoon c.d., do you believe Leon Goldstein murdered Elizabeth Stride?

[c.d.]

Stride was killed with a cut to the throat. I see no significance whatsoever whether it was one cut or two or was somehow different from previous cuts. It accomplished its intended purpose did it not? Would Stride be any more dead with two cuts than she was with one?

Do you really believe that consistency with the cuts would have been foremost in his mind if her killer was Jack?

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

How do you differentiate between a thug wielding a knife and a skilled knifesman? Can you tell that from the cut?

c.d.

Im sure we both know that knife skill was attributed to the man that killed Annie, correct? This is the next presumed victim by the same killer, correct? Then why do we have a single cut that does not sever both arteries? You see, what I object to are arguments that suggest because something is not present that we should just assume the killer must have changed something, instead of looking at whether someone else may be the killer. What would be the catalyst for assuming he changed here? Because the single cut is unlike the priors? Or because the victim is left untouched after a single cut? These indicate that something changed his mind and he just cuts and splits? Speculated interruptions caused him to bail out?

Personally I dont believe that Jack the Ripper, the man who killed at the very least Annie, had any reason or impetus to change. He got away clean...he got to do his abdominal cutting, they had no idea who might have done it....so why change what he did...it served his needs well it seems. And if he kills Kate, then we have continuity in victim choice, private location and severe mutilations to the abdomen with organ extraction and removal. Thats how he worked in Hanbury Street. Thats the guy.

Liz Stride is manhandled, choked and cut by sliding a knife across her throat as he let go of the twisted scarf. A very brief, violent, uncomplicated murder, which is why I say thug....its uncomplicated only until you start inserting a serial mutilator here and then have to explain why all he did previously is not present in Strides murder.

[c.d.]

How do you differentiate between a thug wielding a knife and a skilled knifesman? Can you tell that from the cut?

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

As for Lizzie, I dont think that killer had to be sober, careful, cautious, compelled....he reacted to Liz pissing him off just like a thug might do.

Well then we will have to disagree. I see nothing thug-like in her murder. Just the opposite.

c.d.

Well, if you like to use Israel Schwartz's story then you have the Thug front and centre there, and although I know you like to imagine someone could still have slipped in and out after that altercation, BSM is still the most probable killer based on that story. You have the bruises on her shoulders. You have the twisted scarf. You haveone brutal slice of a knife across the throat.

Nothing there to indicate a skilled knifesman, or a serial mutilator. Just a thug...its all thats needed there.

[c.d.]

As for Lizzie, I dont think that killer had to be sober, careful, cautious, compelled....he reacted to Liz pissing him off just like a thug might do.

Well then we will have to disagree. I see nothing thug-like in her murder. Just the opposite.

c.d.