A closer look at Leon Goldstein

[caz]

...she sought to make herself as presentable as she was capable of doing.

As most women do, when they go out on a Saturday night.

Or is it just me?

So yes, there is evidence she physically prepared for leaving the lodging house in a manner which was not her custom....why can we say this?...because her lodgemate who saw her very regularly noticed the dressing and behaviour differences.

But Stride had never been killed on a Saturday night before. It was a one-off and witnesses were therefore only asked about her appearance on that night. Did anyone specifically state that on every previous Saturday night they had seen this woman go out stinking to high heaven and wearing filthy rags, because it would not have made a ha'p'orth of difference to her earning power, whether she was offering herself to men or offering to clean their lavatories?

Nobody knows what Stride's intentions were that night, because no witnesses came forward to tell us as far as I am aware. But the point is that she could have taken the same basic care of her appearance every Saturday night for all anyone knows, and for all her killer knew, regardless of what her plans were on other occasions. There may be no relevance at all to why she was targeted. Only the killer knew that, and it could simply have been that she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't suppose he gave a flying fart about her appearance, so why should we?

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

An excellent post and summary Michael.

Spot on IMO

RD

I'm afraid I am going to have to disagree here, RD. Here's the problem - even if it can be shown by way of Stride's clothing, flower and cachous that she was prepared for a date or some other activity that night and therefore clearly not actively soliciting, we still have to see some sort of evidence that Jack absolutely would have picked up on that saying hmmm....lint free clothes....cachous....clearly on a date I guess I'll pass her by and not attempt to interact with her.

So her clothes don't really tell us whether she could have been a Ripper victim. It is not an if A then B argument meaning her clothes indicate she was not soliciting and if she was not soliciting she couldn't have been a Ripper victim. It is not that simple. Same goes for the fact that she might have had a little bit of money from working for a few days but again how would Jack have known that and therefore it prevented him from approaching her?

Actively soliciting or not soliciting at all goes out the window once approached and offered money. What she does at that moment is not based on her actions prior to that moment.

c.d.

There has never been any issue on my end for supposition that her killer may have believed she was soliciting...which I believe you cite in order to justify your writing "Jack" this and "Jack" that. Even if her killer did believe she could be purchased that isnt something that can be used to define this as a JtR kill. Ive never suggested that the manner of her dress might have influenced her killer in any way, but the clothing could well reveal why she was there. If we tie her to someone known to be at that scene, then there may be something of that known individual that could suggest some motives for murder. If we discover that she was there to meet someone, or clean, we can then look closer at the statements to sort out some of the problematic timings.

Indications are, since their is no evidence that I know of to the contrary, its most likely the victims were randomly acquired. We dont know he was a stranger to them all, but with Polly then Annie, I think thats the evidence leading up to this murder. What we do know from those 2 murders though is he kills those women to silence them and to enable his cutting, murder does not seem to be the end game. In Liz Strides case, murder is the only game.

[caz]

These sentences make for an interesting juxtaposition. We don't how long she was alone there, but it could have been a few minutes or more. Apparently, no club attendee or neighbour witnessed her in this unknown period of time, yet you're suggesting she was there to find safety in numbers.

We know there were people in the building, so Stride could have known that too. She did not necessarily know if she was in imminent physical danger, or if the people inside would offer her any protection, but she could at least have hoped that would be the case. Better than standing alone outside a deserted building, I'd have thought. And if nobody saw her there, despite the comings and goings, it's entirely possible that she wasn't there long enough to seek direct help from the attendees.

I had a recurring nightmare as a child, that I was being followed down a street at night and felt huge relief to see a house with a light on. I knocked at the door, hoping someone inside would come quickly to my aid, but nobody ever opened it. Luckily I always woke just before the bogeyman caught up with me.

I would imagine many more women than men have had similar nightmares, so you won't be blamed for having experienced nothing of the kind.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Ive never suggested that the manner of her dress might have influenced her killer in any way, but the clothing could well reveal why she was there. If we tie her to someone known to be at that scene, then there may be something of that known individual that could suggest some motives for murder. If we discover that she was there to meet someone, or clean, we can then look closer at the statements to sort out some of the problematic timings.

I'm sorry to inject a note of pessimism, Michael, but I think you will have an uphill struggle to make Stride's clothing or appearance reveal anything useful about her motives for being there, or her killer's motives for slitting her throat. How do you propose to discover if she went there to see a specific individual, or to do a spot of charring, or if she had any original plans to go there at all? All we know is that circumstances found her there, and her life was cut short as a result of a killer with a knife being there too.

Indications are, since their is no evidence that I know of to the contrary, its most likely the victims were randomly acquired. We dont know he was a stranger to them all, but with Polly then Annie, I think thats the evidence leading up to this murder. What we do know from those 2 murders though is he kills those women to silence them and to enable his cutting, murder does not seem to be the end game. In Liz Strides case, murder is the only game.

Well it would be the only game in Stride's case, wouldn't it, regardless of whether this was a different killer, with some specific but unknowable motive, or the same predator as before, who just didn't fancy being caught in the act this time?

One difference by the end of September was the fact that everyone knew there was a man in the neighbourhood who was prepared to murder women at random on the streets. I don't suppose it gave Stride any comfort to know that if she encountered a man with a knife she would be spared mutilation if he had neither the time nor the motivation to do more than cut her throat. But would she not have given even the most fleeting thought to 'what if this bastard is out tonight...?'

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

We know there were people in the building, so Stride could have known that too. She did not necessarily know if she was in imminent physical danger, or if the people inside would offer her any protection, but she could at least have hoped that would be the case. Better than standing alone outside a deserted building, I'd have thought. And if nobody saw her there, despite the comings and goings, it's entirely possible that she wasn't there long enough to seek direct help from the attendees.

I had a recurring nightmare as a child, that I was being followed down a street at night and felt huge relief to see a house with a light on. I knocked at the door, hoping someone inside would come quickly to my aid, but nobody ever opened it. Luckily I always woke just before the bogeyman caught up with me.

I would imagine many more women than men have had similar nightmares, so you won't be blamed for having experienced nothing of the kind.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

As to the line I underlined above....its also entirely possible that people were there in that passageway, while she was being hassled by her killer, and did nothing to interfere. I believe Israels statement works much better with other statements if what he says he saw actually took place as he was leaving the club through the passageway. No one would have seen that from the street, just maybe Israel hurrying on home. Still not convinced he was even there, but I believe its more plausible that he was at the club rather than just coincidentally passing by. His backstory is very weak. He knows Wess, hes a local immigrant Jew...it fits with the time of day a bit better I think.

I had a recurring dream as a kid too...yeah, guys do have them as kids too...and I was in a room with 20ft high walls and no door, with huge animals like in the Wild Things childrens tale. Big huge teeth. Im sure it was because I read the book and saw the illustrations.

Thats one thing that often gets lost here, we are all humans, not just points of view.

[Michael W Richards]

[QUOTE=caz;n830113]

I'm sorry to inject a note of pessimism, Michael, but I think you will have an uphill struggle to make Stride's clothing or appearance reveal anything useful about her motives for being there, or her killer's motives for slitting her throat. How do you propose to discover if she went there to see a specific individual, or to do a spot of charring, or if she had any original plans to go there at all? All we know is that circumstances found her there, and her life was cut short as a result of a killer with a knife being there too.

Actually Caz I believe enough established evidence exists to state she was dressed in her finer clothing and that she would have no other reason to be there other than to see or meet someone. For me, her demeanor and all the circumstantial evidence indicates she had plans that would likely last the entire night. Date or work are equally plausible.

Well it would be the only game in Stride's case, wouldn't it, regardless of whether this was a different killer, with some specific but unknowable motive, or the same predator as before, who just didn't fancy being caught in the act this time?

Since the evidence from the first 2 murders suggests that this Jack fellow wasnt preoccupied with just causing death, he only did so to be able to cut into the victim. Why even attack a woman when there is little if any chance he would be able to cut? I believe also that the evidence in the first 2 alleged Ripper murders suggests that those women were killed as they were actively soliciting...there is no such definitive proof Liz was doing that as there is in Polly and Annies case.

One difference by the end of September was the fact that everyone knew there was a man in the neighbourhood who was prepared to murder women at random on the streets. I don't suppose it gave Stride any comfort to know that if she encountered a man with a knife she would be spared mutilation if he had neither the time nor the motivation to do more than cut her throat. But would she not have given even the most fleeting thought to 'what if this bastard is out tonight...?'

I believe that by the end of September the police thought that the Ripper was a local immigrant jew. Seems to me to be outside a club where virtually everyone there fits that general description would be risk taking...not avoidance.


Cheers Caz.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

We know there were people in the building, so Stride could have known that too. She did not necessarily know if she was in imminent physical danger, or if the people inside would offer her any protection, but she could at least have hoped that would be the case. Better than standing alone outside a deserted building, I'd have thought. And if nobody saw her there, despite the comings and goings, it's entirely possible that she wasn't there long enough to seek direct help from the attendees.

Taking things out of context, yes it might have been a bit safer in theory to stand alone outside a building with people in it versus an empty building, if we assume Stride was indeed aware of the presence of those people. By the same token, it would have been even safer for her not to have stood alone at all. That would be ignoring her reason for being near the club, however. Presumably Stride didn't just say to herself "Now if I'm going to stand alone for a while, I should at least not stray too far away from a group of people, so I guess I'll go stand at the gateway next to the club on Berner St."

Had Stride not been there long enough to be seen by any other witness, the possible comings and goings are tightly constrained. So, Schwartz may have to arrive on the scene very soon after Stride is witnessed by Smith. Parcelman is gone or at least nowhere to be seen. The BS man probably has to be the killer, because Stride cannot keep hanging around at the gates. Eagle might have to walk past her body.

I had a recurring nightmare as a child, that I was being followed down a street at night and felt huge relief to see a house with a light on. I knocked at the door, hoping someone inside would come quickly to my aid, but nobody ever opened it. Luckily I always woke just before the bogeyman caught up with me.

I would imagine many more women than men have had similar nightmares, so you won't be blamed for having experienced nothing of the kind.

Love,

Caz
X

Actually, I once did have a similar nightmare. Unfortunately, though, the bogeyman caught up to me just before I got to the door of a well-lit house. I screamed three times, but not very loudly...

[caz]

Hi Caz,

As to the line I underlined above....its also entirely possible that people were there in that passageway, while she was being hassled by her killer, and did nothing to interfere. I believe Israels statement works much better with other statements if what he says he saw actually took place as he was leaving the club through the passageway. No one would have seen that from the street, just maybe Israel hurrying on home. Still not convinced he was even there, but I believe its more plausible that he was at the club rather than just coincidentally passing by. His backstory is very weak. He knows Wess, hes a local immigrant Jew...it fits with the time of day a bit better I think.

I had a recurring dream as a kid too...yeah, guys do have them as kids too...and I was in a room with 20ft high walls and no door, with huge animals like in the Wild Things childrens tale. Big huge teeth. Im sure it was because I read the book and saw the illustrations.

Thats one thing that often gets lost here, we are all humans, not just points of view.

Hi Michael,

I'm not sure why Schwartz would have come forward at all if it involved lying about his own movements or whereabouts. If he had kept out of it, would anyone have identified him as a potential witness, compelling him to give an account of himself? If the answer is yes, then all the more reason not to lie and have that account contradicted.

Ought the thread return to a closer look at Leon Goldstein? Stride's admirable attempt to look like Joan Collins, and Schwartz's cameo appearance, have both been done to death - if you'll pardon the expression.

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

This would all be so much easier if she had been found in the yard, by the stables...hell, in a stable. Because it would suggest she went back there willingly..no struggles were heard...and that she was most likely soliciting. What we do have however is the fact that she is barely far enough in to be out of site from the street and only feet inside the gates. Not the likely spot for a transaction, nor is it probable that any post mortem cutting could take place. The kitchen door was ajar...clearly anyone could easily be caught. Is that how this Jack fellow approached his business? Throwing caution to the wind...risking it all for a very slim chance he could still mutilate? Easily spotted...esasily accessed from the street...and so close to the gates that Ill bet Leon saw more than he admitted to. Or that his translator said.

[caz]

I believe that by the end of September the police thought that the Ripper was a local immigrant jew. Seems to me to be outside a club where virtually everyone there fits that general description would be risk taking...not avoidance.


Cheers Caz.

Just a quickie...

An ideal spot then for a non-Jewish killer to strike again and keep the local immigrant kettle boiling. But a far from ideal location to hang around afterwards, so perhaps the plan all along was to pull off a double event.

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

Just a quickie...

An ideal spot then for a non-Jewish killer to strike again and keep the local immigrant kettle boiling. But a far from ideal location to hang around afterwards, so perhaps the plan all along was to pull off a double event.

Love,

Caz
X

When you factor in the GSG, it could be a gentile trying to fan the flames. And with the evidence from Mitre Square below the chalk message...it could insinuate a Double Event evening. I also see the GSG as likely being written by the killer in Mitre Square, which does suggest Jews are evading or should be blamed for something. But I dont see, myself, that the GSG author claims Liz as his victim,.. but he does claim Kates as his by virtue of the apron section. For me that is a sign that different killers killed Liz and Kate. He is willing to claim a murder, just not the one on Berner Street. The GSG author thinks the Jews killed Liz, or they should be blamed for it.

I dont believe that at this stage in his evolution that Jack is planning anything. Other than finding the right mix of victim and location before he jumps in. And a few feet inside the gates of a club with active socializing going on and a half open door to the kitchen isnt a spot that suggests privacy or security for a man who kills women so he can cut into them. As I mentioned earlier, if Liz was found in the yard, or the stables, or the unused office with the broken lock, I would be all aboard with her being killed by someone acting as a client. Like Jack likely did with Polly and Annie. First time out, he is a little trigger happy..not a great spot for what he wants, but he does at least initiate the mutilations. In Hanbury, yes...17 people in that house and windows from surrounding houses looking into the yard...but there are no indications that anyone is awake. And he does accomplish everything I believe he intended to do. So, second time out he exhibits learning traits.

Does he then revert after a month to the amateur he was with Polly...or does he try to replicate some of the things that worked so well with Annie?

[c.d.]

And a few feet inside the gates of a club with active socializing going on and a half open door to the kitchen isnt a spot that suggests privacy or security for a man who kills women so he can cut into them.

But the question is what is his mindset at this point? That of a bank robber coolly calculating a bank and its security system or that of a serial killer who has determined he wants Stride dead and all other considerations be damned.

So it wouldn't be a good spot for a killing period regardless of who committed it but we know someone took the chance anyway.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

And a few feet inside the gates of a club with active socializing going on and a half open door to the kitchen isnt a spot that suggests privacy or security for a man who kills women so he can cut into them.

But the question is what is his mindset at this point? That of a bank robber coolly calculating a bank and its security system or that of a serial killer who has determined he wants Stride dead and all other considerations be damned.

So it wouldn't be a good spot for a killing period regardless of who committed it but we know someone took the chance anyway.

c.d.

If we assess what we learned from Polly then Annies murder cd is that he chose to attack women that had an overt, diminished capacity...Polly drunk, Annie ill....and on his second attempt, unless he was just completely lucky on this, he acted when he was in a much more private venue. I say lucky because I believe he chose the victim first, not where, or when, to attack. But he did hold onto his wits longer with Annie...and as a result, it appears he completed his objective. Whatever the hell his core objective was anyway. Whether its the cutting or the organ taking, Im not sure myself. But it wasnt over with just a murder.

As for Lizzie, I dont think that killer had to be sober, careful, cautious, compelled....he reacted to Liz pissing him off just like a thug might do. Even today I see people getting shot, cut, run over for reasons that seem incomprehensible...one gang fighting another, someone disrespected someone, someone swore at someone, someone stole from someone, someone squealed on someone, someone threatens to expose someone, someone stole someones lover......the reasons people kill now, and the reasons that they killed in 1888 havent really changed all that much, people are people. One angry moment and a knife is all it would have taken to kill Liz.

So I see killing Liz as an unplanned, irrational, violent act...one that Im sure the killer never considered before something just triggered him. Well, Jack not only considered his situation, he likely assessed possible targets, venues, opportunities....but one thing I think that truly separates Jack from Strides killer is that Jack went out planning to kill. Liz Strides killer reacted to spontaneous stimulus.

[c.d.]

As for Lizzie, I dont think that killer had to be sober, careful, cautious, compelled....he reacted to Liz pissing him off just like a thug might do.

Well then we will have to disagree. I see nothing thug-like in her murder. Just the opposite.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

As for Lizzie, I dont think that killer had to be sober, careful, cautious, compelled....he reacted to Liz pissing him off just like a thug might do.

Well then we will have to disagree. I see nothing thug-like in her murder. Just the opposite.

c.d.

Well, if you like to use Israel Schwartz's story then you have the Thug front and centre there, and although I know you like to imagine someone could still have slipped in and out after that altercation, BSM is still the most probable killer based on that story. You have the bruises on her shoulders. You have the twisted scarf. You haveone brutal slice of a knife across the throat.

Nothing there to indicate a skilled knifesman, or a serial mutilator. Just a thug...its all thats needed there.