A closer look at Leon Goldstein

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Quite so.

But the same thing applies if Stride wasn't open to offers - that night or any other night. She wasn't with Kidney any more and she was out on a Saturday night. What possible reason would any woman have had for going outdoors looking rough as a badger's arse and smelling bad if she could have done something about it.

Right - Stride's effort with her appearance wasn't necessarily due to a desire to make as much money as possible soliciting. Her care for her appearance that evening is compatible with multiple scenarios. So, if Stride wasn't soliciting when she supposedly stood alone at the gateway to Dutfield's Yard, what convincing reason could you give for her being there?

[Michael W Richards]

When discussing the relevance of how "presentable" Liz had made herself that night its important to factor in very modest economic means, despite the fact that she has been getting steady work. I think thats evident in the way she looks after something like her meagre piece of velvet, which she left with her lodgemate.

Its the good evening wear, as described by someone who knew her well and presumably knew the extent of her wardrobe, the lint brush request...she was wearing a boot length skirt, the appearance of cachous...a flower arrangement. The fact that we discover later that she is sober when killed. A fact which narrows down where she spent the 6d she earned that afternoon..it was not on her when she is found, and the flowers and cachous showed up after she left the lodgings.

I think preening is a reasonable interpretation of her actions. And I dont believe any woman forced to sell her body on those streets..(note I say forced to...we could presume Liz was hard up because her 6d is gone and she didnt pay her doss for the night with it, but that could just as easily mean she intended to spend the night elsewhere anyway), would preen before facing a night full of fear and degradation.

Ive been discussing off topic stuff enough here, so.....there are some curious details about Leon that suggest he intended to go into that passageway and abruptly changed his mind. He had a case full of cigarette cartons. There were men who were cigarette makers living in the cottages in that passageway, who later admitted they were awake at the time of the murder. In fact many of the men there had connections to the underground cigar/cigarette trade. He was, we learn, a member of the club. He didnt come forward right away, in fact, he didnt come in until Tuesday night....with Wess. Which is after Fannys sighting has become widely known. It seems to me that he only came forward because it was public knowledge that someone had seen him, not to add anything relevant to the story. Which is odd. He walks past at a time when Liz is almost certainly in there, possibly with her killer, and they would not be invisible to anyone who looked in. Its also a time when many people state they were in that alleyway over the dying woman, something again which would be hard not to notice.

So, technically, his statement should be of some importance considering the time and the existing statements. But it isnt treated as such. It seems people are content that he answers the question of the man with the black bag as the mythical Ripper. He didnt go in to the yard, he walked "swiftly" pass the open gates. But he did look in.

I believe he didnt come to the police sooner is because he saw something that would likely implicate the club members in this crime, something he probably would be hesitant to do,... and until it became public knowledge that he was seen he could just stay quiet in obscurity. Perhaps Wess encourages him to come in to address this black bag toting "suspect" and just report seeing nothing. Clears him...no issues for the club men.

[caz]

... because what was unfortunate about these women was that they didn't have any means to make themselves wholesome - they lived on the edge of starvation. As poor as Stride was, I don't think she was quite at that edge.

We got there at last! So anything different about Stride's appearance, compared with 'these women' as you put it, would have been down to the fact that she was not 'quite at that edge' - which adds nothing in terms of what her intentions were that night. Her known behaviour is all we have, and the fact that her killer targeted her for some unknown reason.

[caz]

Right - Stride's effort with her appearance wasn't necessarily due to a desire to make as much money as possible soliciting. Her care for her appearance that evening is compatible with multiple scenarios. So, if Stride wasn't soliciting when she supposedly stood alone at the gateway to Dutfield's Yard, what convincing reason could you give for her being there?

I gave one, that she may have sought safety in numbers if she had been pestered earlier. We don't know how long she was alone there before her killer struck.

I'm happy to leave others to discuss other possibilities.

My argument about her appearance was purely that there is no evidence that she took any more care over it 'that evening' than any other.

[c.d.]

What possible reason would any woman have had for going outdoors looking rough as a badger's arse and smelling bad if she could have done something about it.

You do have a way with words, Caz. I must say.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

My argument about her appearance was purely that there is no evidence that she took any more care over it 'that evening' than any other.

Hi again Caz,

I think witness evidence counts, doesnt it? I believe the description made by a witness to Strides preparation gives us the indication that she was not dressing in the manner she would most commonly. Its evident in how she is described and how she behaved prior to leaving the lodging house. When you add new elements like flower arrangements and mints for her breath, you can clearly discern a pattern there...she sought to make herself as presentable as she was capable of doing.

That alone differentiates her from the street women who wore the only clothing they had.....see Kate....and it is unreasonable to assume she would take these same measures regularly to sell herself to smelly, rubby, poor men. Not really......did Mary wear any of her fancy dresses when she went out soliciting?

So yes, there is evidence she physically prepared for leaving the lodging house in a manner which was not her custom....why can we say this?...because her lodgemate who saw her very regularly noticed the dressing and behaviour differences.

Now the most relevant detail regarding this soliciting supposition....she was working...regularly. We hear that she would go out and do what she had to do when she had no work,...but that wasnt the case that night, was it. If fact we dont have evidence she was soliciting even though she intentionally left her regular lodgings without using that 6d she made for her room. So...She did not intend to return that night, which means she had other plans where to "sleep"....or she would be working most of the night. Those 2 possibilities suggest either way, she didnt need to come up with money for a bed. She already had plans.

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

But prostitution was illegal was it not? So therefore, there can not have been any statutes or regulations concerning how prostitutes needed to dress. Nor was it a union thing. So comparing what other women wore when they were soliciting or what you think she should have worn really has no bearing. It would be up to Stride how she wanted to dress soliciting or not.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Those 2 possibilities suggest either way, she didnt need to come up with money for a bed. She already had plans.

Are we to believe that Stride was so naive that because she had worked for a few days she now considered herself financially independent for the rest of her life? And if she didn't need to come up with money for a bed that evening what about the next night and the night after that and the night...

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi again Caz,

I think witness evidence counts, doesnt it? I believe the description made by a witness to Strides preparation gives us the indication that she was not dressing in the manner she would most commonly. Its evident in how she is described and how she behaved prior to leaving the lodging house. When you add new elements like flower arrangements and mints for her breath, you can clearly discern a pattern there...she sought to make herself as presentable as she was capable of doing.

That alone differentiates her from the street women who wore the only clothing they had.....see Kate....and it is unreasonable to assume she would take these same measures regularly to sell herself to smelly, rubby, poor men. Not really......did Mary wear any of her fancy dresses when she went out soliciting?

So yes, there is evidence she physically prepared for leaving the lodging house in a manner which was not her custom....why can we say this?...because her lodgemate who saw her very regularly noticed the dressing and behaviour differences.

Now the most relevant detail regarding this soliciting supposition....she was working...regularly. We hear that she would go out and do what she had to do when she had no work,...but that wasnt the case that night, was it. If fact we dont have evidence she was soliciting even though she intentionally left her regular lodgings without using that 6d she made for her room. So...She did not intend to return that night, which means she had other plans where to "sleep"....or she would be working most of the night. Those 2 possibilities suggest either way, she didnt need to come up with money for a bed. She already had plans.

An excellent post and summary Michael.

Spot on IMO


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Those 2 possibilities suggest either way, she didnt need to come up with money for a bed. She already had plans.

Are we to believe that Stride was so naive that because she had worked for a few days she now considered herself financially independent for the rest of her life? And if she didn't need to come up with money for a bed that evening what about the next night and the night after that and the night...

c.d.

Is it possible that Stride's killer had promised her the world and she believed that he was her way out?

Didn't a suspect to the Kelly murder allegedly tell her "You'll be good for what I've told you"

To me, that hints at a killer who likes to court his prey before revealing his true self and murdering them.

Did Stride fall into her killer's trap days, if not weeks before she was murdered?

The man seen with her outside the Bricklayers arms could have been her killer based on that viewpoint


RD

[c.d.]

An excellent post and summary Michael.

Spot on IMO

RD

I'm afraid I am going to have to disagree here, RD. Here's the problem - even if it can be shown by way of Stride's clothing, flower and cachous that she was prepared for a date or some other activity that night and therefore clearly not actively soliciting, we still have to see some sort of evidence that Jack absolutely would have picked up on that saying hmmm....lint free clothes....cachous....clearly on a date I guess I'll pass her by and not attempt to interact with her.

So her clothes don't really tell us whether she could have been a Ripper victim. It is not an if A then B argument meaning her clothes indicate she was not soliciting and if she was not soliciting she couldn't have been a Ripper victim. It is not that simple. Same goes for the fact that she might have had a little bit of money from working for a few days but again how would Jack have known that and therefore it prevented him from approaching her?

Actively soliciting or not soliciting at all goes out the window once approached and offered money. What she does at that moment is not based on her actions prior to that moment.

c.d.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Ive been discussing off topic stuff enough here, so.....there are some curious details about Leon that suggest he intended to go into that passageway and abruptly changed his mind. He had a case full of cigarette cartons. There were men who were cigarette makers living in the cottages in that passageway, who later admitted they were awake at the time of the murder. In fact many of the men there had connections to the underground cigar/cigarette trade. He was, we learn, a member of the club. He didnt come forward right away, in fact, he didnt come in until Tuesday night....with Wess. Which is after Fannys sighting has become widely known. It seems to me that he only came forward because it was public knowledge that someone had seen him, not to add anything relevant to the story. Which is odd. He walks past at a time when Liz is almost certainly in there, possibly with her killer, and they would not be invisible to anyone who looked in. Its also a time when many people state they were in that alleyway over the dying woman, something again which would be hard not to notice.

So, technically, his statement should be of some importance considering the time and the existing statements. But it isnt treated as such. It seems people are content that he answers the question of the man with the black bag as the mythical Ripper. He didnt go in to the yard, he walked "swiftly" pass the open gates. But he did look in.

I believe he didnt come to the police sooner is because he saw something that would likely implicate the club members in this crime, something he probably would be hesitant to do,... and until it became public knowledge that he was seen he could just stay quiet in obscurity. Perhaps Wess encourages him to come in to address this black bag toting "suspect" and just report seeing nothing. Clears him...no issues for the club men.

Imagine it's that Tuesday night and you're a policeman investigating the case. You haven't heard anything from the man with the black bag, but you know of Schwartz, and you have read Fanny Mortimer's quotes in the papers. She saw a man walking down Berner St, pausing as he did to look back in the direction of the club, before going around the board school corner. That's not much different to the account you've read of the Hungarian in the Star. So, are you dealing with one man, or two? Perhaps, to answer that question, you decide you need additional facts.

Star, Oct 2: In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story. They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source, but they are not likely to act further on the same information without additional facts.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I gave one, that she may have sought safety in numbers if she had been pestered earlier. We don't know how long she was alone there before her killer struck.

These sentences make for an interesting juxtaposition. We don't how long she was alone there, but it could have been a few minutes or more. Apparently, no club attendee or neighbour witnessed her in this unknown period of time, yet you're suggesting she was there to find safety in numbers.

I'm happy to leave others to discuss other possibilities.

Not holding my breath.

My argument about her appearance was purely that there is no evidence that she took any more care over it 'that evening' than any other.

That's true, but we don't exactly know how she looked on any other evening. This seems to be the closest we get to a comparison...

Elizabeth Tanner: I recognise the long cloak which is hanging up in the mortuary. The other clothes she had on last Saturday.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I'm afraid I am going to have to disagree here, RD. Here's the problem - even if it can be shown by way of Stride's clothing, flower and cachous that she was prepared for a date or some other activity that night and therefore clearly not actively soliciting, we still have to see some sort of evidence that Jack absolutely would have picked up on that saying hmmm....lint free clothes....cachous....clearly on a date I guess I'll pass her by and not attempt to interact with her.

The notion of someone clearly being on a date but not actually with the date, can only sort of make sense when referring a person on their way to that date. I'm not sure who is supposed to be making that argument regarding JtR's impression of Stride.

[caz]

What possible reason would any woman have had for going outdoors looking rough as a badger's arse and smelling bad if she could have done something about it.

You do have a way with words, Caz. I must say.

c.d.

I'll take that as a compliment, c.d.

Sometimes I feel an argument calls for a vivid image to show up its inherent weakness.

If any of the other Whitechapel victims could have had the use of a clothes brush, a pack of cachous and a flower, I dare say they wouldn't have turned them down, and we'd now have a small army of women, each going out dressed to the nines to meet someone special, and another small army of ladykillers.

Love,

Caz
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