A closer look at Leon Goldstein

[Wickerman]

Goldstein took his bag to the police station, Schwartz went to the same station to give a statement.

Do you think anyone noticed the similarity?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

22 Christain St was Goldstein's address. Are you suggesting Schwartz was actually Goldstein? And that Schwartz/Goldstein killed Stride and was chased by Pipeman "matching what we see in the Echo report" ?

Cheers, George

Hi George,

Well, compare the route I'm suggesting for Schwartz, to a man starting at Spectacle Alley, and ...

Fanny Mortimer: ... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school.

For all intents and purposes, the two routes are identical. Tell me why.

[GBinOz]

As per the linked post in #173, I'm following the police report exclusively. Therefore, the location of Pipeman is ambiguous but most likely directly across from #40, and definitely not in the doorway of the Nelson.



In the police report, Pipeman follows Schwartz after Schwartz has crossed the road. He crossed the road because he intends to go down Fairclough St, anyway. Notice how Schwartz walks away before noticing Pipeman follow. This is a crucial point because it suggests he was not aware of Pipeman following until turning into Fairclough St. He then runs down Fairclough, and into Christian St (matching what we see in the Echo report). Down near the railway arch is where he lives - 22 Christian St.

Hi Andrew,

22 Christain St was Goldstein's address. Are you suggesting Schwartz was actually Goldstein? And that Schwartz/Goldstein killed Stride and was chased by Pipeman "matching what we see in the Echo report" ?

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

The gateway was 3 yards wide. If BSM and Stride are in the centre, then Schwartz could be at the northern end of the gateway, about 2 yards from the couple with them directly in front of him. Are you proposing that this is when he spotted Pipeman? Are you proposing Pipeman was outside the Nelson, or on the opposite side of that intersection, near the Board School?

As per the linked post in #173, I'm following the police report exclusively. Therefore, the location of Pipeman is ambiguous but most likely directly across from #40, and definitely not in the doorway of the Nelson.

Schwartz said that he noticed Pipeman make a move towards him just as he was stepping off the kerb. There were only 2 kerbs off which he could have been stepping - the western kerb in Berner just in front of the gateway, or the northern kerb of Fairclough, near the Board School.
Schwartz said he became fearful of his safety and ran away. If you are suggesting he was near the gateway when he spotted Pipeman, wouldn't he have been running towards the perceived threat?

Cheers, George

In the police report, Pipeman follows Schwartz after Schwartz has crossed the road. He crossed the road because he intends to go down Fairclough St, anyway. Notice how Schwartz walks away before noticing Pipeman follow. This is a crucial point because it suggests he was not aware of Pipeman following until turning into Fairclough St. He then runs down Fairclough, and into Christian St (matching what we see in the Echo report). Down near the railway arch is where he lives - 22 Christian St.

[GBinOz]

Alternatively, if Stride is pulled from the gateway, as per the police report, then it also has to be accepted that Schwartz had already reached the gates when this occurs.

If the next thing he does is cross the road

Hi Andrew,

The gateway was 3 yards wide. If BSM and Stride are in the centre, then Schwartz could be at the northern end of the gateway, about 2 yards from the couple with them directly in front of him. Are you proposing that this is when he spotted Pipeman? Are you proposing Pipeman was outside the Nelson, or on the opposite side of that intersection, near the Board School?

Schwartz said that he noticed Pipeman make a move towards him just as he was stepping off the kerb. There were only 2 kerbs off which he could have been stepping - the western kerb in Berner just in front of the gateway, or the northern kerb of Fairclough, near the Board School.
Schwartz said he became fearful of his safety and ran away. If you are suggesting he was near the gateway when he spotted Pipeman, wouldn't he have been running towards the perceived threat?

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Ahh, I see:
12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen [sic - Ellen] Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.

It doesn't make sense to me that Schwartz would cross the road to avoid a domestic if he was already in the middle of it, which is what you are suggesting. Despite the language, I think he was short of reaching the actual gateway, where the dispute was in progress, when he crossed Berner St.

Cheers, George

I said nothing about the middle of the street. I said this.

If Schwartz was short of the gateway when the man pushes Stride into that dark yard, prompting Schwartz to cross the street, how was Schwartz able to identify Stride at the mortuary? According to the press report, he hears but does not see the quarrel. Alternatively, if Stride is pulled from the gateway, as per the police report, then it also has to be accepted that Schwartz had already reached the gates when this occurs.

If the next thing he does is cross the road, then he just (inadvertently) told us where he was heading - south-east of the club.

[Lewis C]

Ahh, I see:
12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen [sic - Ellen] Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.

It doesn't make sense to me that Schwartz would cross the road to avoid a domestic if he was already in the middle of it, which is what you are suggesting. Despite the language, I think he was short of reaching the actual gateway, where the dispute was in progress, when he crossed Berner St.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

I would say just the opposite: the closer Schwartz was to the assault, the more motivated he would be to move himself away from it.

[Wickerman]

Really...?

https://jtrforums-research.org/resources/POD1888/s_streets.pdf

M.

Thankyou Mark, thats a huge surprise. I spent months looking for these directories many years ago.
I wasn't aware of a Resources thread over at JtR, I mostly stuck to the press resources.
Thanks, again.

[Mark J D]

The 1895 Post Office Directory show a Chandler shop at 3 Spectacle Alley owned by Jacob Posner.
The same address in 1882 was a dealer in china, there is no surviving PO Direc. for 1888.

Really...?

https://jtrforums-research.org/resources/POD1888/s_streets.pdf

M.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The problem with this idea is Wess knows that Schwartz was a witness to an assault.
So we have to ask ourselves why would he tell an Echo journalist that the man being pursued was thought to be the killer, when the man being pursued was Schwartz, and he knew it?

The man pursued tactic didn't work, as obviously the police came asking about the name Wess was given, that he had managed to 'forget' by the time he was talking to the Echo reporter. The man pursued escaped, whereas Kozebrodski 'escaped' into Dutfield's Yard. Imagine the man with the forgotten name trying to explain that one!

So, the man pursued and the man pursuing had to take on different roles. Version 2.0. Having said that, the Echo report contains an element of truth. Although associated with the club, the pursuing man was indeed a non-member. Here he is:

Joseph Lave sys - I am a Russian, and have recently arrived from the United States. I am residing temporarily at the club. About twenty minutes before the alarm I went down into the yard to get a breath of fresh air. I walked about for five minutes or more, and went as far as the street. Everything was very quiet at that time, and I noticed nothing wrong.

[GBinOz]

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...193#post818193

Ahh, I see:
12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen [sic - Ellen] Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.

It doesn't make sense to me that Schwartz would cross the road to avoid a domestic if he was already in the middle of it, which is what you are suggesting. Despite the language, I think he was short of reaching the actual gateway, where the dispute was in progress, when he crossed Berner St.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

You're right, it always has been thee most important question for those interested in his route of flight.
If we're honest it could be either, an Ellen St. address could be written as "Ellen-street, Backchurch-lane", as Backchurch lane is a larger street than Berner St.
I doubt he gave a false address, you don't offer yourself as a witness just to lie about where you live. The interpreter will also need to give his address, he is as much responsible for what is stated as the witness, and both will have to sign the statement.

Either way, there is no particular reason for Schwartz to cross the street when he does - having just watched some portion of the incident. There is no motive to cross, other than that being appropriate for his real destination. By crossing the street, he reveals that his real general destination is south-east of #40 Berner St. The reference to the railway arch makes things even clearer.

The other important question, for those wary about press versions, is what did "opposite" mean in Swanson's summary?
Did Schwartz step out to cross the road, and saw Pipeman standing opposite - meaning by the Board School?
Or had Schwartz reached the Board School and then noticed Pipeman standing opposite, that is back on the club side if the street?
Swanson only says "on crossing", but did he mean as he began crossing, or as he finished crossing?

I think Swanson's summary takes a birds-eye-view, and not a Schwartz-eye-view. That is, "opposite" always means across from the club, and not a point-of-view that keep changing with movement.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Does it? Where?

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/witnesses/816510-the-stride-murder?p=818193#post818193

[Wickerman]

Let's accept that the press report is closer to the truth, as you seem to. So, what's going on here?...

The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage, but, feeling rather timid of getting mixed up in quarrels, he crossed to the other side of the street.

Aside from it seeming rather pointless for Schwartz to cross the street, now that the man and woman are in the passageway quarrelling, it also seems that the man clearly doesn't object to Stride being anywhere near the yard. On the contrary, he pushes her back into it. It's as if he were saying ...

Get back in there bitch, where do you think you're going!

Except she was supposedly standing in the gateway. Perhaps Eagle found her outside, slacking off?

Ok, for those who prefer the press version:
1 - who is responsible for replacing a pipe with a knife?
2 - why is a man suggested as coming "out of a doorway" that was already closed? - there is no shelter
3 - why does the half-tipsy man push the woman into the yard (consistent with the body being found in the yard implying this was her killer), while in the police version he pulls her out of the yard (suggesting this was only an assault, not the final act of her killing, leaving room for some missing activity).
4 - The man who stepped forward to 'chase' Schwartz is presented as a threat by the press, but is presented as possibly an understandable mistake in the police version.

All points taken together make it seem like the story in the press was hyped up to appear more dramatic, likely to sell papers?

[GBinOz]

George,
the police report suggests that Schwartz was level with the gates when the man stops to talk to the woman.

Does it? Where?