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  • Originally posted by New Waterloo View Post
    Hello Michael. Thank you for responding to my confusion over the doors also thanks NotBlamed. There is so much on the site to read and understand and your knowledge is appreciated. Can I just add for the benefit of those who may not be aware. Please forgive me if its obvious but there is a cultural practice in England called a 'lock in' where pubs remain 'open' to favoured friends to remain and continue drinking alcohol. Doors are locked, curtains drawn. It is quite lawful to do this IF no payment takes place. In other words the pub reverts in law to a private place. In reality some continue selling alcohol which is against the law and risk a visit from the constabulary and a loss of licence. (After warnings) so it is quite possible that people could be in the pub after closing time. I should mention that people cannot enter the pub during the illegal drinking session only remain after the closing time. Again apologies if most knew this. The premises are private residences when closed and public places when open.

    NW
    I didn't know this, and found it of interest.

    Comment


    • It's also important to acknowledge that the Nelson wasn't a pub; it was a beerhouse.

      Similar but different.

      The nearest pub was in Batty Street, accessed by walking around the perimeter of the board school, or by walking through the alleyway linking Berner Street to Batty Street

      RD
      "Great minds, don't think alike"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

        It's also important to acknowledge that the Nelson wasn't a pub; it was a beerhouse.

        Similar but different.

        The nearest pub was in Batty Street, accessed by walking around the perimeter of the board school, or by walking through the alleyway linking Berner Street to Batty Street

        RD
        Right, it was a real pub.

        Why else suppose the pub in question was the Red Lion on Batty St, and 'doorway to the pub' actually referred to the entrance to Hampshire Court?

        The entrance was a few doors off.

        It places the second man (aka Pipeman) on the same side of the street as he is in the police account.

        It places the second man outside, as he seems to be in the police account.

        There is no issue of a man walking out of public-house that had already closed for the night, or the licensee knowing nothing of a man leaving after closing time.

        It suggests that both men were headed in the same general direction - south down Berner St. This is important when considering if the men were known to each other.

        The court is conceivably where the man halted to light his pipe, sheltered as he would be from the wind.



        More about the Red Lion from a dissertation ...

        RED LION
        24 Batty Street
        • Located mid-street on the western side. Batty Street runs south from Commercial Road, parallel to Berner Street which is one block to the west of it.
        • The pub does not exist today.
        • The landlord in 1888 was Henry Guy.
        • Another pub not known to have been used by Ripper victims or suspects, but still of interest. At the height of the panic which followed the ‘double event’ we know that the police watched a number of houses. One address identified in the press was 22 Batty Street, right next door to the pub. A lodger, or just possibly a visitor depositing washing, left a bloody shirt at this address. He never returned to collect it. Stewart Evans and Paul Gainey believe this person to have been the suspect Francis Tumblety, and that he was lodging at number 22.
        • Israel Lipski lived at number 16 where he murdered Miriam Angel. He was hanged for the crime in 1887. Israel Schwartz said that the man he saw attacking Stride called out the word “Lipski”.
        Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

        Comment


        • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
          Why else suppose the pub in question was the Red Lion on Batty St, and 'doorway to the pub' actually referred to the entrance to Hampshire Court?

          The entrance was a few doors off.

          It places the second man (aka Pipeman) on the same side of the street as he is in the police account.

          It places the second man outside, as he seems to be in the police account.

          There is no issue of a man walking out of public-house that had already closed for the night, or the licensee knowing nothing of a man leaving after closing time.

          It suggests that both men were headed in the same general direction - south down Berner St. This is important when considering if the men were known to each other.

          The court is conceivably where the man halted to light his pipe, sheltered as he would be from the wind.
          Hi Andrew,

          I don't find this theory to be persuasive. Schwartz said he saw Pipeman as he stepped off the kerb into Fairclough St, after he had turned to see to state of the quarrel. The entrance to Hampshire Court would have been directly behind him and at some distance. The police report stated, in confusing language, that Pipeman was on the opposite side of Berner St to Schwartz after Schwartz had crossed the road to the eastern side. I find your former theory of a mistranslation far more palatable.

          Cheers, George
          They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
          Out of a misty dream
          Our path emerges for a while, then closes
          Within a dream.
          Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

          ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

          Comment


          • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

            Hi Andrew,

            I don't find this theory to be persuasive. Schwartz said he saw Pipeman as he stepped off the kerb into Fairclough St, after he had turned to see to state of the quarrel. The entrance to Hampshire Court would have been directly behind him and at some distance. The police report stated, in confusing language, that Pipeman was on the opposite side of Berner St to Schwartz after Schwartz had crossed the road to the eastern side. I find your former theory of a mistranslation far more palatable.

            Cheers, George
            Your first point is a good one - a strict interpretation of the press account has Schwartz facing away from Hampshire Court at the moment he steps onto Fairclough. As you say, this was just after he turns to observe how the quarrel is proceeding (makes me wonder why he walked away from it). However, isn't that the answer to the apparent contradiction? If he could turn back when hearing the quarrel, why can't he also turn back when hearing the man with the knife shout a warning to the other man, and at that moment, observe him exiting the court?

            Presumably we should not suppose that either account precisely captures reality, especially having gone through a translation layer.

            Your interpretation of the location of Pipeman is not shared by everyone. See Steps To The Nelson? for opposing arguments.

            I don't have a former theory, as far as I know. Hampshire Court entrance = "the doorway of the public-house a few doors off" requires 'doorway' to be a mistranslation. The Hungarian 'kapualj' translates to 'doorway', but also 'gateway'. Google Translate​ Perhaps the following was what the Hungarian wanted to convey...

            ... a second man came out of the gateway to the public-house a few doors off ...
            Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

            Comment


            • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

              Right, it was a real pub.

              Why else suppose the pub in question was the Red Lion on Batty St, and 'doorway to the pub' actually referred to the entrance to Hampshire Court?

              The entrance was a few doors off.

              It places the second man (aka Pipeman) on the same side of the street as he is in the police account.

              It places the second man outside, as he seems to be in the police account.

              There is no issue of a man walking out of public-house that had already closed for the night, or the licensee knowing nothing of a man leaving after closing time.

              It suggests that both men were headed in the same general direction - south down Berner St. This is important when considering if the men were known to each other.

              The court is conceivably where the man halted to light his pipe, sheltered as he would be from the wind.



              More about the Red Lion from a dissertation ...

              RED LION
              24 Batty Street
              • Located mid-street on the western side. Batty Street runs south from Commercial Road, parallel to Berner Street which is one block to the west of it.
              • The pub does not exist today.
              • The landlord in 1888 was Henry Guy.
              • Another pub not known to have been used by Ripper victims or suspects, but still of interest. At the height of the panic which followed the ‘double event’ we know that the police watched a number of houses. One address identified in the press was 22 Batty Street, right next door to the pub. A lodger, or just possibly a visitor depositing washing, left a bloody shirt at this address. He never returned to collect it. Stewart Evans and Paul Gainey believe this person to have been the suspect Francis Tumblety, and that he was lodging at number 22.
              • Israel Lipski lived at number 16 where he murdered Miriam Angel. He was hanged for the crime in 1887. Israel Schwartz said that the man he saw attacking Stride called out the word “Lipski”.
              The Nelson was a beerhouse, but in this context it's official status is irrelevant because in 1869 once the Magistrates took control of Beerhouses (in a bid to shut them down) and/or to fall in line with fully licensed pubs, the closing times of Beerhouses was extended from 10pm to 12.30am.

              The point that the Nelson was a beerhouse or a pub is not the key point; it's the fact that all pubs were legally obliged to close at 12.30am.

              That means that IF so called Pipeman stepped from the steps of the Nelson, it has been closed for at least 15 minutes before Schwartz was alleged to have seen him.

              It's also important to acknowledge that PC Smith walked past the corner of Berner Street/Faircloth street just minutes after the Nelson closed...ergo, kicking out time.

              Due to the heavy rain that night it is plausible that Pipeman had come out of the Nelson and was standing under the sheltered doorway of the Nelson in a bid to wait for the weather to settle and/or to light a cigar/pipe.


              Of course, Schwartz could have made it all up and the entire incident never happened.

              If only we had another witness who could corroborate a word of what Schwartz said.

              A perfect lie is always embedded in some form of truth.

              I would consider Schwartz is more likely to have been the man who cut Stride's throat, not necessarily the Ripper but the man who killed Stride.

              Killer's often enjoy embedding themselves into a murder investigation by placing themselves at the scene and portraying themselves as a key witness or saviour.

              Until the day that Schwartz can be definitively identified post-Stride murder, then IMO he remains the most likely individual to have murdered Stride.


              And just to reiterate...all pubs were closed by the time Schwartz claimed to have witnessed Stride being assaulted.

              As an aside, I think there was also another pub called the George IV, within the local vicinity, that could also be considered as a potential location for Pipeman and Co.
              I am not sure but worth a mention nonetheless.


              RD



              "Great minds, don't think alike"

              Comment


              • The pub Spooner was at closed at midnight "We had left a public- house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named." Not sure why I see 12:30 as the closing time in the neighbourhood in some posts here.
                Michael Richards

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                  The pub Spooner was at closed at midnight "We had left a public- house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named." Not sure why I see 12:30 as the closing time in the neighbourhood in some posts here.
                  Because 12.30am was the latest legal closing time for public houses. Pubs could close earlier if they chose to of course but the point is that 12.30am was the latest time a pub could close, ergo, if Pipeman did step out from the Nelson beerhouse doorway, it had been closed for at least 15 minutes prior.

                  ​​​​​​

                  RD
                  "Great minds, don't think alike"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

                    Because 12.30am was the latest legal closing time for public houses. Pubs could close earlier if they chose to of course but the point is that 12.30am was the latest time a pub could close, ergo, if Pipeman did step out from the Nelson beerhouse doorway, it had been closed for at least 15 minutes prior.

                    ​​​​​​

                    RD
                    The reason I asked is that resources Ive referred to all cite 12 midnight as the closing time for pubs that year in the Metropolitan area of London.
                    Michael Richards

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

                      The Nelson was a beerhouse, but in this context it's official status is irrelevant because in 1869 once the Magistrates took control of Beerhouses (in a bid to shut them down) and/or to fall in line with fully licensed pubs, the closing times of Beerhouses was extended from 10pm to 12.30am.

                      The point that the Nelson was a beerhouse or a pub is not the key point; it's the fact that all pubs were legally obliged to close at 12.30am.

                      That means that IF so called Pipeman stepped from the steps of the Nelson, it has been closed for at least 15 minutes before Schwartz was alleged to have seen him.

                      It's also important to acknowledge that PC Smith walked past the corner of Berner Street/Faircloth street just minutes after the Nelson closed...ergo, kicking out time.
                      Right, so I didn't even mention perhaps the best reason for supposing that Pipeman came out of the court, and not the beerhouse - the beerhouse had closed no later than 12:30, whereas the court closed at never o'clock.

                      ... a second man came out of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off​ ...

                      In the press account, he wasn't standing at the doorway, he came out of it. So, the pub a few doors off probably does not refer to the Nelson, for that reason alone.

                      Due to the heavy rain that night it is plausible that Pipeman had come out of the Nelson and was standing under the sheltered doorway of the Nelson in a bid to wait for the weather to settle and/or to light a cigar/pipe.
                      I don't think it was raining at the time.

                      Of course, Schwartz could have made it all up and the entire incident never happened.

                      If only we had another witness who could corroborate a word of what Schwartz said.

                      A perfect lie is always embedded in some form of truth.

                      I would consider Schwartz is more likely to have been the man who cut Stride's throat, not necessarily the Ripper but the man who killed Stride.

                      Killer's often enjoy embedding themselves into a murder investigation by placing themselves at the scene and portraying themselves as a key witness or saviour.

                      Until the day that Schwartz can be definitively identified post-Stride murder, then IMO he remains the most likely individual to have murdered Stride.
                      We have a press report that states the Leman St police had reason to doubt the truth of his story, but on the other hand, we have nothing to suggest it was believed by any police that Schwartz was the man pursued, as the murderer. What do you suppose the police thought of his account - truth, lie, or something in-between?

                      And just to reiterate...all pubs were closed by the time Schwartz claimed to have witnessed Stride being assaulted.

                      As an aside, I think there was also another pub called the George IV, within the local vicinity, that could also be considered as a potential location for Pipeman and Co.
                      I am not sure but worth a mention nonetheless.


                      RD
                      The dissertations link in #243 has info on significant pubs.
                      Andrew's the man, who is not blamed for nothing

                      Comment


                      • Imagine a scenario whereby Goldstein has just slashed Stride's throat and headed north, but then as he nears Fanny's door he hears her open the door and so he quickly turns around and hurriedly walks back past the club, glimpsing towards it to make sure he hasn't been spotted
                        Fanny witnesses him walking south past the club and around the corner, but could have missed him walking north towards her just moments before she looked out her door.
                        Goldstein then goes to the club for help and Wess covers his back.
                        To be doubly sure, they invent a stereotypical Jewish looking character in Schwartz, who goes to the police and concocts a completely fabricated story of BS man and Pipeman and an assault on Stride that never happened; creating a false anti-semitic slur to draw focus away from the club.

                        Goldstein slits her throat for whatever reason, but the point being that the club help to cover their tracks by inventing Schwartz, who could have been played by anyone loyal to the club.

                        As a non-Jewish woman who speaks Yiddish and who is standing outside the club, Stride may have been slain by the radical element of the club who may have thought Stride was an informant.

                        ​​​​
                        RD
                        "Great minds, don't think alike"

                        Comment


                        • I think it should be added here that Liz Stride would not feel uncomfortable in the company of Jewish men, she had been working (cleaning) for local Jewish families for some time prior to that night. I wouldnt be surprised to learn that one of the members suggested her to help clean when large get togethers happen. And on the eve of the high holiday, perhaps extra celebratory that night. Or that one of the men knew, or knew of her. In any event I think when she is out of Smiths sight, she steps into the passageway and is out of sight from the street. I think she walked in and was waiting on the spot she is killed on, never again visible from the street.
                          Michael Richards

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                            I think it should be added here that Liz Stride would not feel uncomfortable in the company of Jewish men, she had been working (cleaning) for local Jewish families for some time prior to that night. I wouldnt be surprised to learn that one of the members suggested her to help clean when large get togethers happen. And on the eve of the high holiday, perhaps extra celebratory that night. Or that one of the men knew, or knew of her. In any event I think when she is out of Smiths sight, she steps into the passageway and is out of sight from the street. I think she walked in and was waiting on the spot she is killed on, never again visible from the street.
                            I think that's all very plausible and likely.

                            I have never bought the idea that the killer would have stayed with Stride for any considerable amount of time. The Ripper may have accosted his prey and spent a little time with them beforehand, but the idea that the killer would have allowed himself to be seen by other witnesses, including PC Smith, is all too far-fetched for me.

                            The scenario you describe would tie into either Joseph Lave coming out for a spot of fresh air, or Eagle returning to the club, after having taken his lady friend home.

                            Packer was mimicking a story from the Coram Street murder on Christmas Day 1872, and was likely told what to say by Le Grand.

                            There is also evidence to suggest that a man had tried it on with her, but she had rejected him by saying "No, not tonight" (or words to that effect)


                            I think she was offered the Cachou, either in preparation to kiss/be kissed by her killer, or the killer placed them in her palm deliberately before he left.

                            The act of murdering Stride would have taken under 30 seconds, including the killer calmly walking back into the club after a spot of fresh air...


                            RD

                            "Great minds, don't think alike"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                              I think it should be added here that Liz Stride would not feel uncomfortable in the company of Jewish men, she had been working (cleaning) for local Jewish families for some time prior to that night. I wouldnt be surprised to learn that one of the members suggested her to help clean when large get togethers happen.
                              With all due respect, my dear chap, I don't quite see her as dressed for cleaning work that night. Not with that outfit, humble though it was, and the care she'd taken over it. Whatever had enticed her to literally within 175m of Lechmere's mother's house was different altogether...

                              Bests,

                              Mark D.
                              Last edited by Mark J D; 02-13-2024, 08:04 PM.
                              (Image of Charles Allen Lechmere is by artist Ashton Guilbeaux. Used by permission. Original art-work for sale.)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
                                Imagine a scenario whereby Goldstein has just slashed Stride's throat and headed north, but then as he nears Fanny's door he hears her open the door and so he quickly turns around and hurriedly walks back past the club, glimpsing towards it to make sure he hasn't been spotted
                                Fanny witnesses him walking south past the club and around the corner, but could have missed him walking north towards her just moments before she looked out her door.
                                Hi RD,

                                The Evening News of 1 Oct details three interviews with women who were standing in their doorway that night. Two of those interviews are obviously with Fanny Mortimer, but the third was with the wife of a well-to-do artisan (FM was married to a Car man). Here is an extract:

                                " I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"

                                "No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."

                                "Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"

                                "No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."


                                IMO this was a possible report of Goldstein leaving the murder site to establish an alibi at the Spectacle Cafe, but in that view I form a small minority of one. this has been the subject of previous discussion, and it has been pointed out to me that, while Berner St sloped noticeable from north to south, up and down actually mean the same thing. My point is, that there is no need for your speculation about an about-face, as someone was seen headed north that night, carrying a black bag.

                                Cheers, George
                                They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
                                Out of a misty dream
                                Our path emerges for a while, then closes
                                Within a dream.
                                Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

                                ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                                Comment

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