The broken window

[DJA]

Coroner was not appointed until Mary Kelly's corpse was moved to Shoreditch.

[Wickerman]

Hi David
Yes,just read in the star of the 10th that Dr.Phillips decided that no one should enter the room. Bit odd though for the doctor to 'pull rank' over an inspector and make a decision for him

Hi Packers.

I think we should interpret the words of Dr Phillips as being in agreement with the opinion of Insp. Beck, that no entry should be made.

Had there been another victim inside the room who clearly was still alive, the doctor would have to confront Insp. Beck to allow him access regardless of any instruction to the contrary.
Phillips was in essence saying, I see (through the window) no cause to contest the instruction to stay outside for now.

[Robert St Devil]

Ohhhhh kay {coff coff}

Would the coroner own the scene, David?

[c.d.]

I thought Warren was reading a book to an elementary class when he got word.

So was President George Bush on September 11th.

c.d.

[Robert St Devil]

I thought Warren was reading a book to an elementary class when he got word. This sounds like it's on the doctor. If he says he looked thru the bottom pane and hes smart enough to be a doctor... Knobs right there. Brown would have used it. Does the coroner own the scene?

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

You never see significance in anything which you haven't thought of yourself.

Merely an observation.

I'm off out now. See you later, no doubt.

Regards,

Simon

[Wickerman]

We do have a timeline.

It is the report of the Inquest.

Like I said, we do not have a timeline of his movements on Friday morning.

Barnett says he heard of a murder in Millers Court sometime on Friday, this must have been after 11:00 when the police took possession of the court, but he doesn't say what the time was.

Barnett went to the police station, and they took him down to Dorset St. He introduced himself and was interviewed by Abberline, who had himself arrived at 11:30, so we know Barnett was there no earlier than 11:30.

He was with police in total for four hours (one account says 2.5 hrs, but that may just have been at Millers Court).

So we can say Barnett arrived at Millers Court after 11:30, and was interviewed for 2.5 hrs. We do not know when he told the police how he could access the room via the window.
However, that detail is not relevant, the order was given that no-one can enter the room, so Abberline wouldn't attempt it until the police were given permission to access the room.
Supt. Arnold arrived at 1:30, and gave the order to break in the door.

We don't know where Abberline was at that moment, he may well have been interviewing the witnesses at the moment Arnold arrived. We don't even know if Abberline had interviewed Barnett by that time.

Therefore, there is no firm timeline of events concerning Barnett.

[packers stem]

An observation of my own.

Evidence of Inspector Abberline:

"I was on the scene of the murder by 11.30 on Friday, I had an intimation from Inspector Beck that the dogs had been sent for. Dr Phillips asked me not to force the door but to test the dogs if they were coming. We remained until 1.30 when Superintendent Arnold arrived and informed me that the order as to dogs had been countermanded, and he gave directions for the door to be forced."

Hi David
Yes,just read in the star of the 10th that Dr.Phillips decided that no one should enter the room. Bit odd though for the doctor to 'pull rank' over an inspector and make a decision for him

[David Orsam]

Simon,

I'm not seeing the significance of Abberline asking Sir Charles Warren to bring the dogs, if he actually did such a thing. Eventually he found out the dogs weren't coming and an entry into Kelly's room was effected. It didn't matter if that took place at 11.30am or 1.30pm for the reasons given by Dr Phillips.

It is self-evident that Warren received the information about there having been another murder (not a telegram about dogs!) at some point before 12.30 but I fail to see what point you are trying to make here. Someone was a bit slow in getting the telegram from Commercial Street to Scotland Yard? Warren was in a meeting at the time? He was out at the Mayor's Day Parade? What's the point you want to make about the time it took to get a telegram from Miller's Court to the Commissioner? How does it make any difference to anything at all?

[curious4]

Why????

[packers stem]

Hello Packers

Living above Kelly she may well have heard it. And what in the world would Kelly have had to gain by lying about it?

C4

Hi C4
Pretending to Barnett that the key had been lost is one possibility?

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

I'm glad you put "sarcasm" in brackets, otherwise I'd never have known.

I think the suggestion is that Abberline asked Sir Charles Warren.

Here's another pointless observation.

Sir Charles Warren wrote "Information just received (12.30) 9.11.88.”

How much more specific would you like him to have been?

Regards,

Simon

[David Orsam]

Evidence of George Bagster Phillips:

"...finding the door locked I looked through the lower broken pane and satisfied myself that the mutilated corpse lying on the bed was not in need of any immediate attention from me and I also came to the conclusion that there was nobody else on the bed or within view to whom I could render my professional assistance. Having ascertained that probably it was advisable that no entrance should be made into the room at that time, I remained until about 1.30 when the door was broken open..."

Another observation there.

[David Orsam]

An observation of my own.

Evidence of Inspector Abberline:

"I was on the scene of the murder by 11.30 on Friday, I had an intimation from Inspector Beck that the dogs had been sent for. Dr Phillips asked me not to force the door but to test the dogs if they were coming. We remained until 1.30 when Superintendent Arnold arrived and informed me that the order as to dogs had been countermanded, and he gave directions for the door to be forced."

[David Orsam]

Landlord John McCarthy told Central News—“The Inspector [Abberline] waited a little while, and then sent a telegram to Sir Charles Warren to bring the bloodhounds, so as to trace the murderer, if possible.”

Just another pointless observation?

Very good of Inspector Abberline to tell a member of the public exactly what he was doing and the identity of the people he had sent telegrams to. And, yes, I can really see Sir Charles walking down Whitechapel, bringing the bloodhounds himself, (*sarcasm*) so Abberline clearly did not tell Sir Charles to do this.