The broken window

[Simon Wood]

Hi Wickerman,

Star, 10th November 1888—

JOE BARNETT'S STATEMENT.

"Kelly had a little boy, aged about six or seven years, living with her."

Regards,

Simon

[packers stem]

He would recognise the body by the hair, it being her most distinctive feature. Oh, and perhaps the protruding teeth we are told she had.

I don't think it was Barnett who told about a child, I thought the source was not named.

Was part of the statement he gave to the star along with the friend at elephant and Castle
I'll never agree she could be identified by her 'bloodsoaked' hair and her eyes. Look at the photo,it's a nonsense to believe the ID as sound

[DJA]

Thought it was a pick.

Apart from under the bed,was there much blood on the floor?

[Wickerman]

Identified? Would need facial reconstruction Wickerman. Why people are blind to this is beyond me.
This is the same Barnett who told the press that Kelly had a small boy aged 6 or 7 living with her...

He would recognise the body by the hair, it being her most distinctive feature. Oh, and perhaps the protruding teeth we are told she had.

I don't think it was Barnett who told about a child, I thought the source was not named.

[packers stem]

Hi Phil.
Hope you are well.

Have you read somewhere that the door was boarded up?
The Echo wrote:
"The windows of the room where the crime was committed were then boarded up and a padlock put on the door."

It doesn't appear the door was too damaged.
I suspect the axe was used as a lever to just pry the door open, not to smash a hole in it.
Maybe that is why McCarthy choose to do it himself so as to minimize the damage?

Possibly but as we're on newspaper reports the star state that the killer must have left via the window as the door was barricaded by the bedstead....
If that's true why not go in via the window?

[Wickerman]

After the remains were removed, the door was "boarded up".
This indicates the covering of said hole made by the axe.
The broken window likewise, I believe.

Hi Phil.
Hope you are well.

Have you read somewhere that the door was boarded up?
The Echo wrote:
"The windows of the room where the crime was committed were then boarded up and a padlock put on the door."

It doesn't appear the door was too damaged.
I suspect the axe was used as a lever to just pry the door open, not to smash a hole in it.
Maybe that is why McCarthy choose to do it himself so as to minimize the damage?

[packers stem]

Why????

Someone else was already in possession of the key possibly

[curious4]

Another observation for consumption.

As an axe was used to break open the ddoor in order to gain entry...

There is no evidence that the door was broken down. .In other words removed partly or totally from its hinges.
There is no evidence that only the door lock itself was attacked.
There is no evidence that a hole large enough was made in order for the policemen and doctors to step "through" into the room.

On these basis ( plural), it is totally logical to believe that only part of the door face was attacked with the axe, in order for someone to reach in and open the lock.

Which rather tends to rule out anyone believing on the off chance that any killer remained inside, on top of the Phillips evidence beforehand.

After the remains were removed, the door was "boarded up".
This indicates the covering of said hole made by the axe.
The broken window likewise, I believe.

It was noted that there were no footprints inside either, which also tells us that with the amount of blood on the floor,
said killer was very careful where he stepped inside the room.
Had we not known the window (s) was/were broken previously due to an argument, the smudge of blood could have been from the killer gaining entry that way himself. There is no evidence the smudge was fresh, is there??

Just observations.



Phil

Hello Phil

I give in. You win. But it was worth considering, at least.

Best wishes
C4

[packers stem]

I don't "move" anything, I try from various perspectives to help others understand.

Barnett says he looked at the body through the window. Not that he identified her through the window.

Barnett also tells us that he identified the body at the mortuary, which was obviously after 4:00 pm.

Identified? Would need facial reconstruction Wickerman. Why people are blind to this is beyond me.
This is the same Barnett who told the press that Kelly had a small boy aged 6 or 7 living with her...

[Phil Carter]

Another observation for consumption.

As an axe was used to break open the ddoor in order to gain entry...

There is no evidence that the door was broken down. .In other words removed partly or totally from its hinges.
There is no evidence that only the door lock itself was attacked.
There is no evidence that a hole large enough was made in order for the policemen and doctors to step "through" into the room.

On these basis ( plural), it is totally logical to believe that only part of the door face was attacked with the axe, in order for someone to reach in and open the lock.

Which rather tends to rule out anyone believing on the off chance that any killer remained inside, on top of the Phillips evidence beforehand.

After the remains were removed, the door was "boarded up".
This indicates the covering of said hole made by the axe.
The broken window likewise, I believe.

It was noted that there were no footprints inside either, which also tells us that with the amount of blood on the floor,
said killer was very careful where he stepped inside the room.
Had we not known the window (s) was/were broken previously due to an argument, the smudge of blood could have been from the killer gaining entry that way himself. There is no evidence the smudge was fresh, is there??

Just observations.



Phil

[Wickerman]

OK you've moved the goal posts.

Regarding Barnett.....Abberline sent for him to identify Mary Kelly,so no earlier than 1.30 pm.
Abberline left at 4pm,hence the 2.5 hours.

Barnett's interview with Abberline was not made public.

We only have the Coroner's Inquest report.

Apart from that,regarding Barnett.....I dunno!

I don't "move" anything, I try from various perspectives to help others understand.

Barnett says he looked at the body through the window. Not that he identified her through the window.

Barnett also tells us that he identified the body at the mortuary, which was obviously after 4:00 pm.

[Wickerman]

Inspector Beck, being the first officer to arrive at the scene shortly after 11:00 am, took charge of Millers Court.

Dr Phillips arrived about 11:15, and would naturally expect to enter the room.
Any discussion concerning entry to the room will have been between Phillips and Beck, before Abberline arrived.

On Abberline's arrival at 11:30, Phillips cautioned him not to enter, and Beck intimidated to him that the dogs had been sent for.
Naturally, Abberline will comply.

[DJA]

Like I said, we do not have a timeline of his movements on Friday morning.

He was with police in total for four hours (one account says 2.5 hrs, but that may just have been at Millers Court).

So we can say Barnett arrived at Millers Court after 11:30, and was interviewed for 2.5 hrs. We do not know when he told the police how he could access the room via the window.
.

OK you've moved the goal posts.

Regarding Barnett.....Abberline sent for him to identify Mary Kelly,so no earlier than 1.30 pm.
Abberline left at 4pm,hence the 2.5 hours.

Barnett's interview with Abberline was not made public.

We only have the Coroner's Inquest report.

Apart from that,regarding Barnett.....I dunno!

[David Orsam]

Hi David,

You never see significance in anything which you haven't thought of yourself.

Merely an observation.

A ridiculous and wholly inaccurate one which fails to disguise the fact that you have not answered any of the questions that I have addressed to you in this thread nor put forward any positive case as to what you think was going on that morning.

[David Orsam]

Hi David
Yes,just read in the star of the 10th that Dr.Phillips decided that no one should enter the room. Bit odd though for the doctor to 'pull rank' over an inspector and make a decision for him

Why are you seeking information from a newspaper? We have the answer from Inspector Abberline himself which I've already quoted:

"Dr Phillips asked me not to force to door but to test the dogs if they were coming'"

The doctor advised the inspector as to the best approach. He wasn't pulling rank. There is nothing 'odd' about it.