Alternative entrences / exits to #29 Hanbury crime scene?

[Jon Guy]

We know Thompson was the 4 o' clock carman, Who was the 5 o' clock one?

Where did you get that one from, Martin ?

[martin wilson]

HI John

'Some of the carmen in the fish market go out to work as early as one a.m, others at four or five', Rocky's Evening Standard post above.
Is she talking about lodgers or the various times people go to work? 'So that anyone can get in'
All the best.
'

[martin wilson]

Hi John

I thought she was speaking of a specific person, as we know Thompson is the 4 o'clock carman. Perhaps she was just speaking generally about the times people went to work. In other words ' people are up and about all hours, and anyone can get in'
all the best.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Martin

Yes, I think she was just talking generally about the times people are up and about for the markets.

[martin wilson]

Hi John

Yes, I think that's it, she 'didnt' miss a thing' and I'm beginning to believe her, we all know that sort.
All the best.

[Rosella]

Well, to be fair, Mrs Richardson was sleeping on the first not the ground floor. Her grandson didn't hear anything untoward either. Neither did Mrs Hardiman or her son William and they were on the ground floor.

(A) People do go to bed to sleep not to listen out for possibly alien noises.

(B) This was a busy lodging house. The Victorian working day began incredibly early by our standards and there would be several pairs of hobnail boots going backwards and forwards from about 3am onwards, not to mention people going to the privy.

None of these people kept a checklist of exactly who passed their rooms at particular hours of the day or night. Mrs Richardson probably guessed at Thompson's footfall because she knew it and being partly awake she called out to him.

I mean, hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it? If the inhabitants of No 29 had known that Jack was going to pay a visit they would have all sat up with paper and pencil, noting every noise, and a couple of policemen could have been tucked away in Mrs Hardiman's quarters.

Unfortunately they didn't know and so every tenant reacted in their own way and made their own statements.

[martin wilson]

Hi all

She may have inadventently dropped her son in it, as Rocky's post has the date of September the 10th and her and John's inquest evidence wasn't given until the 12th.
I suppose it depends how you interpret 'calling out' to Thompson, either a 'good morning' or she called him up for work, Davies has it at 3.30 a.m, Amelia at 3.50 a.m, also stating he did not go into the yard, which begs the question of how she knew this if she was just dozing.
She must have spoken to John and Thompson previous to the interview, some may interpret this innocently, trying to find out what happened, others may see it as the time honoured 'getting your story straight'.
all the best.

[Rosella]

Most people, if a murder had occurred in the back yard, especially with a killer like Jack on the loose, would be discussing it with their friends and family. You'd hardly keep silent, especially in the immediate hours afterwards. We know that Mary Kelly's neighbours' did, why not the Richardsons and their fellow tenants.

Richardson had no record of criminality of any kind. His mother, a religious woman who kept a fellow tenant out of charity, certainly didn't, so why attribute deep dark motives to people who don't deserve it?

A murder occurred in the back yard of Mrs Richardson's house. That's true. Her son John was on the back steps near the time it happened. That is also true.

John Richardson told the police himself that he was there. There has been a lot of speculation here, without any proof given that he said so because he knew that someone must have seen him.

Who, then? I'd like, please, to see links to newspapers that printed interviews, with names, with those who saw Richardson in the back yard with a knife. I don't think there are any. Prove me wrong!

The police questioned and cleared John Richardson of killing Annie.

[GUT]

Most people, if a murder had occurred in the back yard, especially with a killer like Jack on the loose, would be discussing it with their friends and family. You'd hardly keep silent, especially in the immediate hours afterwards. We know that Mary Kelly's neighbours' did, why not the Richardsons and their fellow tenants.

Richardson had no record of criminality of any kind. His mother, a religious woman who kept a fellow tenant out of charity, certainly didn't, so why attribute deep dark motives to people who don't deserve it?

A murder occurred in the back yard of Mrs Richardson's house. That's true. Her son John was on the back steps near the time it happened. That is also true.

John Richardson told the police himself that he was there. There has been a lot of speculation here, without any proof given that he said so because he knew that someone must have seen him.

Who, then? I'd like, please, to see links to newspapers that printed interviews, with names, with those who saw Richardson in the back yard with a knife. I don't think there are any. Prove me wrong!

The police questioned and cleared John Richardson of killing Annie.

You'll get one of two answers:

"No suspicion could attach to him" doen't mean he was cleared or

Well other SK's are let go by the police before being arrested.

To the first one I say as I've said before ask 10 people what t does mean then.

To the second, but the police did eventually arrest them and in part it was because they wee on the radar.

[RockySullivan]

Most people, if a murder had occurred in the back yard, especially with a killer like Jack on the loose, would be discussing it with their friends and family. You'd hardly keep silent, especially in the immediate hours afterwards. We know that Mary Kelly's neighbours' did, why not the Richardsons and their fellow tenants.

Richardson had no record of criminality of any kind. His mother, a religious woman who kept a fellow tenant out of charity, certainly didn't, so why attribute deep dark motives to people who don't deserve it?

A murder occurred in the back yard of Mrs Richardson's house. That's true. Her son John was on the back steps near the time it happened. That is also true.

John Richardson told the police himself that he was there. There has been a lot of speculation here, without any proof given that he said so because he knew that someone must have seen him.

Who, then? I'd like, please, to see links to newspapers that printed interviews, with names, with those who saw Richardson in the back yard with a knife. I don't think there are any. Prove me wrong!

The police questioned and cleared John Richardson of killing Annie.

Hi Rosella, what do u hear what do u say

Richardson was the last known person in the yard before a dead body was found. He had a knife with him while he was there. I take particular interest in the the Stolen tools from the cellar since the same stolen tools are also mentioned from the whitehall cellar. How many people were questioned & cleared by your estimate in the ripper case? I'm not sure why you believe that someone had to see richardson with a knife in order for him to worry that someone did..

[RockySullivan]

A couple interesting things about John Davis the man who discovered Chapman. He was awake from 3am to 5am before going back to sleep. He only lived there for two weeks. He chose to go out into the street and alert two random strangers rather than anyone in the house. Why?
Casebook:

On Friday, September 7th 1888, he had gone to bed at approximately 8.00pm; his sons came in at different times thereafter, the last one at about 10.45pm. Davis was awake between 3.00am and 5.00am on the morning of the 8th, before falling back to sleep for half an hour. He got up at 5.45am. He was certain of the time as he heard the clock of Christchurch chime.

When he went downstairs to the backyard, he noticed that the front door of the house was wide open (not unusual) and that the back door leading to the yard was shut. When he entered the yard, Davis saw the body of Annie Chapman.

He did not go any further into the yard, but ran out into the street where he saw two men whose names he did not know (actually James Green and James Kent) and after telling them of his discovery, they went to see the body for themselves. Davis left the house with them and went to Commercial Street Police Station to report what he had seen. He did not alert any other residents of No.29 to the discovery and though he returned to Hanbury Street, he did not re-enter the house until the afternoon.

[RockySullivan]

One more strange thing....this thread has an account of some thrill seekers wanting to see 29 hanbury and finding Davis alone in the yard at night. http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6733&page=1

[Rosella]

Regarding Davis's reactions on discovering Annie, it seems clear he was pretty frightened. He probably just took one look, turned tail and ran to get a policeman, or some kind of male help just in case the killer was still around! The lower floors of No 29 was full of middleaged and elderly women and youths. If we were talking of the era of home telephones it would have made more sense for him to have used a hall phone to call the police. Not however in a slum house in 1888.

[Vincenzo]

wow, I didn't realize this thread was still going! lol

It's probably going to take me a couple days to catch up with all these posts.

I'm kind of sad that I saw people suspecting Mr. Richardson of being her killer.

If he were Jack the Ripper, why kill one of his victims in his own back yard?

[RockySullivan]

Rosella those are good points.

Vincenzo, I imagine it's not unheard for a murderer to commit a murder on there own property. The fact is , again, richardson was the last known person in the yard. He had a knife. He changed his story multiple times.