Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[Sunny Delight]

Mortimer doesn't need to be lying, mistaken is good enough. Lying, in most cases, requires motive. We know of no motive for her to lie.

That aside, the point here, as I see it is, Schwartz claims BS-man was staggering ahead of him, while Mortimer heard measured footsteps.
Measured footsteps & staggering are not the same.

BS-man walked down to the gateway, but we have no evidence which way he left.
Likewise, Parcelman was last seen crossing the road to the gateway, but we have no evidence which way he left.
Parcel-man isn't "inserted", he was there, seen by at least two witnesses, whereas only one witness saw BS-man.

You seem to be satisfied that BS-man is a legitimate suspect, but on the same evidence you reject Parcel-man being a legitimate suspect.
The police regarded both as legitimate suspects.

If, in your opinion, Parcel-man is an "insert" when we speculate how he left, then BS-man is also an "insert" for precisely the same reason.
No-one saw either of them leave.

I am stating that the man with the parcel was not seen by Schwartz- who seemed to have an unobstructed view of both BS man and Stride. You suggest he was hidden in the darkness of Dutfield's Yard. We can't rule it out because, well how can we? Anyone can suggest that someone was hidden in the darkness. I say Schwartz didn't see him- you reply well he was hidden in the darkness. How can one refute that?

The bottom line is that going on what we have- Schwartz places 4 people on the street at 12:45am. Those are himself, BS man, Pipeman and Elizabeth Stride. Pipeman and Schwartz go in the opposite direction of Mortimer's house. It is impossible for it to have been Stride. The only other possibility based on the one eyewitness statement we have is that BS man passed Mortimer's house on the way back up Berner Street. Mortimer stands at her door for ten minutes from shortly after 12:45am and is co-orborated by Leon Goldstein who she sees at 12:55am. She saw no one else in that ten minute period. She saw no one else in my estimation because Stride had been killed already.

[The Rookie Detective]

Chris.
The press account reads as if BS-man walked down Berner St.

When he (Schwartz) came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved. As he turned the corner from Commercial-road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him, and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alley way where the body was afterwards found.

This is my reason for not accepting BS-man could be Parcel-man - they came from opposite directions.

Jon S.

Ah, but my suggestion is that moments before Schwartz turned that corner into Berner Street, Bs Man was walking away from Stride's location heading north, but then stopped before he got as far as Mortimer's door and then turned around to walk back towards Stride with the intent of attacking her, at the very moment that Schwartz turned the corner.

And so from Schwartz's perspective, he only sees Bs Man walking towards Stride.

My argument is that Bs man had previously interacted with Stride, but after rejecting him he walks away from her and heads North, but then turns around to go back and attack her

Mortimer then hears Schwartz walk past her door just a few moments before the assault takes place.

[Wickerman]

I am stating that the man with the parcel was not seen by Schwartz- who seemed to have an unobstructed view of both BS man and Stride. You suggest he was hidden in the darkness of Dutfield's Yard. We can't rule it out because, well how can we? Anyone can suggest that someone was hidden in the darkness. I say Schwartz didn't see him- you reply well he was hidden in the darkness. How can one refute that?

I'm well aware how tenuous the suggestion is, but we need a reason for Stride standing in an alleyway alone, when every time she has been seen she was with a man.
Certainly she could have stood there alone listening to singing, it's just more acceptable to have her with a man than stood alone down a backstreet.

The fact no-one saw the man can be accounted for due to the darkness of the shadows directly behind (or in front) of Stride.
We don't know which way she was facing, but if BS-man tried to turn her around, as we read in Swanson's notes, then she was facing the darkness, which can be justified if she was talking to a man in the shadows.
These assumptions are not unreasonable.

The bottom line is that going on what we have- Schwartz places 4 people on the street at 12:45am....

Yes, but you limit yourself to Schwartz, there is more to this story than what Schwartz claims to have seen.

[Wickerman]

Ah, but my suggestion is that moments before Schwartz turned that corner into Berner Street, Bs Man was walking away from Stride's location heading north, but then stopped before he got as far as Mortimer's door and then turned around to walk back towards Stride with the intent of attacking her, at the very moment that Schwartz turned the corner.

And so from Schwartz's perspective, he only sees Bs Man walking towards Stride.

My argument is that Bs man had previously interacted with Stride, but after rejecting him he walks away from her and heads North, but then turns around to go back and attack her

Mortimer then hears Schwartz walk past her door just a few moments before the assault takes place.

Ok, I guess I didn't grasp your complete argument.
I wonder what happened to the parcel, Schwartz never mentioned one.
At least my Parcel-man could have walked away from the crime eating grapes from the package, who'd suspect such a figure?

Do you have any concern with the differences between BS-man & Parcel-man?

Parcel-man
"At 12.35 a.m., 30th September, with Elizabeth Stride, found murdered at one a.m., same date, in Berner-street - A man, aged 28, height 5ft 8in, complexion dark, small dark moustache; dress, black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; respectable appearance; carried a parcel wrapped up in a newspaper.

BS-man
At 12.45 a.m., 30th, with same woman, in Berner-street, a man, aged about 30, height 5ft 5in, complexion fair, hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shoulders; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak.

[Sunny Delight]

I'm well aware how tenuous the suggestion is, but we need a reason for Stride standing in an alleyway alone, when every time she has been seen she was with a man.
Certainly she could have stood there alone listening to singing, it's just more acceptable to have her with a man than stood alone down a backstreet.

The fact no-one saw the man can be accounted for due to the darkness of the shadows directly behind (or in front) of Stride.
We don't know which way she was facing, but if BS-man tried to turn her around, as we read in Swanson's notes, then she was facing the darkness, which can be justified if she was talking to a man in the shadows.
These assumptions are not unreasonable.



Yes, but you limit yourself to Schwartz, there is more to this story than what Schwartz claims to have seen.

A lot of ifs and buts in your Parcel man idea. Too many for my liking. I find the assumptions unreasonable- if she was seen with other men that night why was she now alone? If she was talking to a man standing in the darkness of Dutfields Yard he wouldn't have been seen. If she was facing the Yard then it might be possible she was conversing with someone and this was possibly why BS man spun her around.

Stride was standing outside Dutfields Yard at 12:45am if Schwartz is to be believed. We don't know why. Only she could have answered that. Maybe she was soliciting. Maybe she was taking a breather after entertaining a few men throughout the evening. Who knows. We can't insert a man into the darkness to make it try and make sense.

I don't limit myself to Schwartz. I also find Fanny Mortimer's testimony to be highly significant. James Brown appeared at the Inquest and was almost certain he had seen Stride. His testimony is not to be dismissed although I find it more likely he saw the couple that Mortimer spoke too.

[New Waterloo]

Mentioned this before and it plays on my mind a bit. Mortimer says that there was a couple standing opposite the yard before and after the time of the murder and never saw or heard a thing. Those of you with greater understanding of the timings involve need to help please. How could this be.

Apparently there are at least 4 couples standing in the area. 1) Stride and her companion, 2)Spooner and his lady friend (in the area) 3) Mortimers couple and at 1245am 4) Morris Eagle and his girlfriend are in Berner Street.

Can I suggest at least one of these couples are the same. If you understand what I mean. Does that alter anything?

Thank you for any thoughts

NW

[Sunny Delight]

Mentioned this before and it plays on my mind a bit. Mortimer says that there was a couple standing opposite the yard before and after the time of the murder and never saw or heard a thing. Those of you with greater understanding of the timings involve need to help please. How could this be.

Apparently there are at least 4 couples standing in the area. 1) Stride and her companion, 2)Spooner and his lady friend (in the area) 3) Mortimers couple and at 1245am 4) Morris Eagle and his girlfriend are in Berner Street.

Can I suggest at least one of these couples are the same. If you understand what I mean. Does that alter anything?

Thank you for any thoughts

NW

Mortimer places the couple at the Board School which is not exactly opposite Dutfield's Yard. James Brown also claims to have seen a couple at the Board School around this period. Morris Eagle had left his girlfriend home and was returning to the club alone at 12:40am. Spooner was a distance away from Berner Street.

It may be significant that that Mortimer implies that the murder must have taken place between her going inside- which we can place at around 12:55am, and Diemshutz finding Stride's body at 1am. So Mortimer's statement that the couple had spoken to her and they were in the area before and after the murder had taken place could be referring to this period. So for instance the couple stop at the Board School just prior to 12:50am- seen by James Brown as he goes to collect supper at around that time.

The real murder time of 12:45am is unaffected by any of this.

[New Waterloo]

Thank you Sunny D for that info. I think we need to read the evidence of the witnesses very carefully.

My personal belief is there is a possibility that Diemschutz was not the first to discover Strides body. At he Inquest he states that he entered the side door after making the discovery and looked for his wife. He found her in the front room with several members and told them there was a woman laying in the yard who may be drunk or dead.

Now this is the important bit with my idea. Having announced this to several members what would they do? Can I suggest they would go and have a look. Possibly not all but at least some.

Eagle who was upstairs states that a man called Gidlman come upstairs and says theres a woman dead in the yard (so he must have been aware of at least the extent of the injuries on Stride to suggest she was dead. In other words Strides body had been looked at by the time Gidlman goes upstairs.

By now there should be several people in the yard around Strides body. The members in the front room in any case.

BUT when Eagle goes downstairs into the yard he specifically says at the Inquest;

'I went down in a second and struck a match, when I saw a woman lying on the ground in a pool of blood, near the gates. Her feet were towards the gates, about six or seven feet from them. She was lying by the side of and facing the club wall. When I reached the body and struck the match another member was present'.

He states 'another member was present' meaning one member. Question. Where have all the members from the front room gone? Its a clear statement he makes. It sounds as if he, Diemschutz and this other member are. But we know that others must have been aware as several in the front room knew and one of them Gidlman ran upstairs to tell the others.

He emphasizes this stating that when he returned several members were now in the yard with others.

Something is not right here. My suggestion is that the people in the front room already knew about Stride being either killed or attacked and were slow to come out into the yard from the club. Otherwise they would have been there when Eagle came downstairs. Eagle confirms they were not there. saying there was just another member.

Anyway who is this Gidlman?

Maybe a load of rubbish but I just put it out there. Still don't know what it means though!!

NW

[c.d.]

Inconsistent statements and statements that seem to contradict each other could be significant. No question about it. On the other hand, how realistic is it to think that people in this situation are going to set emotion and adrenaline aside and be thoroughly logical and consistent in their actions and statements?

c.d.

[Lewis C]

Mortimer places the couple at the Board School which is not exactly opposite Dutfield's Yard. James Brown also claims to have seen a couple at the Board School around this period. Morris Eagle had left his girlfriend home and was returning to the club alone at 12:40am. Spooner was a distance away from Berner Street.

It may be significant that that Mortimer implies that the murder must have taken place between her going inside- which we can place at around 12:55am, and Diemshutz finding Stride's body at 1am. So Mortimer's statement that the couple had spoken to her and they were in the area before and after the murder had taken place could be referring to this period. So for instance the couple stop at the Board School just prior to 12:50am- seen by James Brown as he goes to collect supper at around that time.

The real murder time of 12:45am is unaffected by any of this.

Hi Sunny,

None of this affects the murder time if we assume that Brown was mistaken when he said that he was almost certain that the woman that he saw was Stride. It's also possible that Mortimer was mistaken.

[Sunny Delight]

Hi Sunny,

None of this affects the murder time if we assume that Brown was mistaken when he said that he was almost certain that the woman that he saw was Stride. It's also possible that Mortimer was mistaken.

Agreed. It is difficult to ascertain at this juncture what the exact picture that night was. We can only offer hypothesis.

[Sunny Delight]

Thank you Sunny D for that info. I think we need to read the evidence of the witnesses very carefully.

My personal belief is there is a possibility that Diemschutz was not the first to discover Strides body. At he Inquest he states that he entered the side door after making the discovery and looked for his wife. He found her in the front room with several members and told them there was a woman laying in the yard who may be drunk or dead.

Now this is the important bit with my idea. Having announced this to several members what would they do? Can I suggest they would go and have a look. Possibly not all but at least some.

Eagle who was upstairs states that a man called Gidlman come upstairs and says theres a woman dead in the yard (so he must have been aware of at least the extent of the injuries on Stride to suggest she was dead. In other words Strides body had been looked at by the time Gidlman goes upstairs.

By now there should be several people in the yard around Strides body. The members in the front room in any case.

BUT when Eagle goes downstairs into the yard he specifically says at the Inquest;

'I went down in a second and struck a match, when I saw a woman lying on the ground in a pool of blood, near the gates. Her feet were towards the gates, about six or seven feet from them. She was lying by the side of and facing the club wall. When I reached the body and struck the match another member was present'.

He states 'another member was present' meaning one member. Question. Where have all the members from the front room gone? Its a clear statement he makes. It sounds as if he, Diemschutz and this other member are. But we know that others must have been aware as several in the front room knew and one of them Gidlman ran upstairs to tell the others.

He emphasizes this stating that when he returned several members were now in the yard with others.

Something is not right here. My suggestion is that the people in the front room already knew about Stride being either killed or attacked and were slow to come out into the yard from the club. Otherwise they would have been there when Eagle came downstairs. Eagle confirms they were not there. saying there was just another member.

Anyway who is this Gidlman?

Maybe a load of rubbish but I just put it out there. Still don't know what it means though!!

NW

I am confused as to what you are trying to say? So the people in the front room knew she was dead, what exactly does that mean? Who told them? How did they find out? It makes zero sense.

[Wickerman]

..

BUT when Eagle goes downstairs into the yard he specifically says at the Inquest;

'I went down in a second and struck a match, when I saw a woman lying on the ground in a pool of blood, near the gates. Her feet were towards the gates, about six or seven feet from them. She was lying by the side of and facing the club wall. When I reached the body and struck the match another member was present'.

He states 'another member was present' meaning one member. Question. Where have all the members from the front room gone? Its a clear statement he makes. It sounds as if he, Diemschutz and this other member are. But we know that others must have been aware as several in the front room knew and one of them Gidlman ran upstairs to tell the others.

He emphasizes this stating that when he returned several members were now in the yard with others.

Yes, but when you put the sequence of events in order, Diemschutz & Kozebrodski had already come back out and ran for police. So other members likely followed them, plus Krantz came out of the print office to see what the commotion was about. That tells us there were other members in the yard by the time Eagle came out.

[The Rookie Detective]

Mortimer places the couple at the Board School which is not exactly opposite Dutfield's Yard. James Brown also claims to have seen a couple at the Board School around this period. Morris Eagle had left his girlfriend home and was returning to the club alone at 12:40am. Spooner was a distance away from Berner Street.

It may be significant that that Mortimer implies that the murder must have taken place between her going inside- which we can place at around 12:55am, and Diemshutz finding Stride's body at 1am. So Mortimer's statement that the couple had spoken to her and they were in the area before and after the murder had taken place could be referring to this period. So for instance the couple stop at the Board School just prior to 12:50am- seen by James Brown as he goes to collect supper at around that time.

The real murder time of 12:45am is unaffected by any of this.

We also have Packer's couple who apparently stood across the road "almost opposite" him, for over half an hour in the rain.

Almost opposite his location would have been either directly opposite the entrance to Dutfield yard, or on the corner by the Board School.

But Packer's evidence is arguably the most suspect of all the alleged witnesses.

The one thing that needs to be considered, is that Stride had been seen with another man by the 2 men at the Bricklayers Arms public house around 11pm. The witnesses commenting on the way that the man was carrying on with her; kissing her etc...

It therefore stands to reason that IF this was Stride; and its almost certain it was; then she was seen leaving WITH the man and heading in the general direction of Berner Street.
On balance; it would therefore be reasonable to say that Stride arrived in the vicinity of Berner Street WITH the same man.

The couple that most closely resembles Stride and the man she was with; were witnessed by Marshall.
I mean in terms of their BEHAVIOUR; ergo, kissing etc...

The man who was overheard saying "You'd say anything but your prayers."

Of course, it all depends on how close the descriptions match between Marshall's account of the couple he saw, and the description of the man seen with Stride previously at the Bricklayers Arms.

So we have some behavioural continuity between the couple seen at the Bricklayes Arms, with the couple seen by Marshall.

[New Waterloo]

Hello Wickerman. Thank you for your comments. Yes I do see what you are saying and you have great knowledge. I dont want to be seen as someone just making daft suggestions. So bear with me.

Its the comments of Eagle at the Inquest that I think are interesting. He does state that when he came down and looked at Stride there was another member present. He then says

'I ran towards the Commercial-road, Dienishitz, the club steward, and another member going in the opposite direction down Fairclough- street. In Commercial-road I found two constables at the corner of Grove-street. I told them that a woman had been murdered in Berner-street, and they returned with me'.

He is saying, not me that he starts his run at the same time as Diemschutz and another who went in the other direction. He knows this because that's what happened and that is what he is saying.

I am sorry to any readers who think I am not making sense and yes I dont know where it takes us but I trying not to formulate ideas but look at what the actual people at the time said.

Yes you are probably right that there were many in the yard at this time but its just Eagles comments about when he saw the body that there was another in the yard. It just strikes me stange because he would say when I looked at the body there were other members in the yard wouldnt he?

All food for thought.

Thanks all

NW