Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[Jon Guy]

Fair enough.

c.d.

sorry C.D. Just read my post back and I didn`t mean to be rude. I was just saying I wasn`t including you as I know you don`t buy it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Sorry Michael, good point. I absolutely accept that it was possible for another person to arrive on the scene. But, as you know, I reckon BS Man looks just like the man Marshall saw with Stride an hour earlier, and for that reason I believe it was him (BS Man /Marshall`s Man) who came back and attacked her. I think this man was the Ripper because whoever killed Stride did so quickly and efficiently attacking the left carotid again. The man also had a peaked cap like Church Passage Man. Also, the timing of the murder in Mitre Sq sits well with someone leaving Berner Street at 1am.

No problem Jon. Yes there’s certainly a similarity between Marshall’s man and BS man. I discussed this fairly recently (I think on here) and made a suggestion that Stride might not have been standing on the pavement as BS man approached. My suggestion was that after being seen by Marshall, BS man and Stride went there separate ways. BS man visited a pub or two then headed back to Berner Street via Commercial Road while Stride walked north heading for some unknown location. Maybe she saw BS man walking drunkenly toward her and wanted to avoid him so she ducked into the gateway believing that he hadn’t seen her but he had and this was where Schwartz saw him pulling her out into the street? Maybe the added alcohol combined with Stride wanting nothing to do with him caused him to pull his knife? Speculation of course.

[c.d.]

sorry C.D. Just read my post back and I didn`t mean to be rude. I was just saying I wasn`t including you as I know you don`t buy it.

No problem. You are back on my Christmas card list.

c.d.

[c.d.]

If Stride saw the B.S. man returning wouldn't she have tried to get to the safety of the club, screaming and pounding on the doors?

And if the B.S. man returned after having left he apparently didn't give a rat's behind that both Schwartz and the Pipe Man could be on their way back as well with a P.C. in tow.

c.d.

[Sunny Delight]

Precisely, could be as much as 10 minutes, more or less, of missing time between what Schwartz claims he saw and the arrival of Diemschutz. The missing time permits the presence of a third man, which is perfectly viable when the Chief Inspector himself suggests the possibility.

Not if you take Fanny Mortimers evidence into account.

[Sunny Delight]

Distance is immaterial, its the time between the two incidents that permits the theory.
BS-man pulled or knocked her to the ground in the gateway, she was found on the ground several feet away. BS-man was not said to have pulled Stride by her scarf, and she was found on her left side facing the wall, having been pulled backward.
Two separate incidents.

Pulled backwards- not dragged backwards. Schwartz saw a man he felt was trying to pull Stride into the street. He spun her around and threw her on the ground. This all happened in seconds. Schwartz evidently crossed the road and then saw Pipeman so his gaze was fixed on him, whilst BS man then shouted Lipski at Pipeman, or so Abberline thought. So based on an incident witnessed by Schwartz that lasted mere seconds you assume that BS man was not said to have pulled Stride by the scarf. How can you possibly know?

Here is the real issue for those advocating a second man. We have a Broad shouldered man who matches quite well the later descrption of a man seen with Catherine Eddowes, given by Joseph Lawende. There is no evidence that BS man left the scene at Dutfields Yard to give another man a chance to appear. The last he was seen was standing next to a woman he had forcefully thrown to the ground who is found mere feet away 15 minutes later with her throat cut.

[Sunny Delight]

No problem Jon. Yes there’s certainly a similarity between Marshall’s man and BS man. I discussed this fairly recently (I think on here) and made a suggestion that Stride might not have been standing on the pavement as BS man approached. My suggestion was that after being seen by Marshall, BS man and Stride went there separate ways. BS man visited a pub or two then headed back to Berner Street via Commercial Road while Stride walked north heading for some unknown location. Maybe she saw BS man walking drunkenly toward her and wanted to avoid him so she ducked into the gateway believing that he hadn’t seen her but he had and this was where Schwartz saw him pulling her out into the street? Maybe the added alcohol combined with Stride wanting nothing to do with him caused him to pull his knife? Speculation of course.

I have always been intrigued by the sightings of the possible killer conversing with victims. With Annie Chapman the witness states a man asks her 'Will you' as they converse. In Catherine Eddowes case she stands with her hand on the man's chest in a flirtatious manner. With Mary Kelly- if you believe George Hutchinson the killer opens the conversation with a joke that Kelly laughs along with. In that way the Stride incident is an anomaly..

However if JTR was a man used to easily winning over Prostitues pretty much immediately- then possibly Stride being aloof or more guarded enrages him. That prompts the attack. Again just a thought.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have always been intrigued by the sightings of the possible killer conversing with victims. With Annie Chapman the witness states a man asks her 'Will you' as they converse. In Catherine Eddowes case she stands with her hand on the man's chest in a flirtatious manner. With Mary Kelly- if you believe George Hutchinson the killer opens the conversation with a joke that Kelly laughs along with. In that way the Stride incident is an anomaly..

However if JTR was a man used to easily winning over Prostitues pretty much immediately- then possibly Stride being aloof or more guarded enrages him. That prompts the attack. Again just a thought.

And a good thought as far as I’m concerned Sunny. It’s possible that BS man was a former client or even a regular client and when he saw her near the club he tried to persuade her to go with him but she had other plans. This guy was drunk and maybe started to think ‘why is my money not good enough for you now?’ Women have sadly been killed for less.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff.

Any time Stride was seen that night she was with a man, if we prefer to think she was suddenly alone, we have even more questions.

If she was indeed facing the yard when BS-man assaulted her, the man she was talking to, in my view, would have been Parcel-man. They were seen together in the street by PC Smith only minutes before, if Parcel-man was not with her, we have a question of "why?"
I suspect Parcel-man was her killer.

Hi Wickerman,

Oh, I wasn't suggesting your idea can be ruled out, and I hope I didn't come across as suggesting that. I would say, however, that Schwartz's statement as given does not mention Stride as being in company with anyone else. I get that you're suggesting the possibility that she was, only that her companion was out of sight to Schwartz as he was around the corner and in the ally. But even if so, if Stride is in conversation with ally-man, then he must be fairly close to the entrance way, and given Schwartz passes by the ally it seems to me if someone were there he would have a high probability of seeing him. It's not impossible though, as he may only have started taking note of B.S. and Stride after he had passed and looked back, by which time ally-man has retreated somewhat to be out of sight, but it starts to feel to me a bit like making excuses for why he wasn't seen and yet was there. That doesn't mean I'm ruling it out though, I'm just trying to understand what would have had to have happened in order for him not to be seen by Schwartz. The more specific those movements have to be in order to explain the absence of evidence for Ally-man, the less confident I am in the explanation, that's all.

Anyway, my cautiousness aside, I agree that Parcel-man would make for a good candidate for Ally-man. Personally, I could see Parcel-man abandoning Stride after PC Smith passed by, becoming uncomfortable (that would apply whether he's a punter or JtR). If he left the area by heading south towards Fairclough, telling Stride to wait there for him as he was going to go fetch something (or some other such excuse to prevent her from following him for example), then she may have been waiting for him and facing towards Fairclough, which puts her back towards B.S. type thing.

Also, as I mentioned, there are situations that make sense of B.S. turning her around even if she were initially facing him, and that what he was doing was turning her and then shoving her in a "move on" type of way. Coupled with her not calling out loudly, that could suggest at least some familiarity between them. To the extent that B.S.'s description corresponds to men she was seen with earlier that night, that may be all the familiarity required though.

Best and Gardner say they saw Stride at the Bricklayer's Arms Pub around 11, a short man with a dark mustache and sandy eyelashes. The man was wearing a billycock hat, mourning suit and coat. That is not all that far off Schwartz's description of man about 30 years old, 5' 5" tall with a fresh complexion, dark hair and small brown mustache dressed in an overcoat and an old black felt hat with a wide brim. Marshall later reports that at 11:45 Stride is with a man in a short black cutaway coat and sailor's hat outside number 63. They are kissing and carrying on. He hears the man say "You would say anything but your prayers." The "kissing and carrying on" also describes how Best and Gardner's man was interacting with Stride, which makes me wonder if she's still with the same fellow. PC Smith's man was described as 28 years old, dark coat and hard deerstalker hat. He is carrying a parcel approximately 6 inches high and 18 inches in length. the package is wrapped in newspaper.

While the police reports suggest that Schwartz and Smith are probably describing different men, to me the two descriptions could be of the same person (but I admit they are so generic they could also be two entirely different people). And given the errors of detail that are associated with eye-witness reports, it is not out of the question that all of these people are trying to recall details of the same man.

I fully admit I'm well beyond anything that can be considered "solid", but if I can beg an indulgence for a bit longer, let's consider the possibility that indeed, Stride has been with the same fellow since 11:00, and that the conflict in the descriptions between Best and Gardner, Marshall, PC Smith, and Schwartz are due to the infallibility of eye-witness descriptions with regards to specific details. And we're left with the idea of a shortish fellow, with a mustache, an overcoat of some sort, and wearing a hat. Stride and this fellow had been at the Bricklayers Arms earlier that night, leaving at 11, and that is just north of where Stride was murdered.

If B.S. is this man that Stride had been seen with, then why is he coming down Berner Street from Commercial when Schwartz sees him? Perhaps he went back to the pub, hoping to get a final drink, and she waited for his return outside the club. However, having misguessed the time, the pub was closed, and he's now returning. If she sent him off in the first place, he might be annoyed with her, sparking the initial conflict that Schwartz witnesses and things escalate from there.

No, I'm not convinced that is what happened, and I would suggest that it is unlikely. But I don't think it's impossible either, and there are aspects of my "just so" story that have a bit of appeal to them. It would, of course, suggest that Stride knows this fellow more than casually given the amount of time they appear this story has them together. That might fit well with her earlier behaviour suggesting she might have been preparing to meet someone, where the flower came from (he gives it to her), and so perhaps this is the fellow she was intending to meet up with.

Sadly, like any speculative idea, it is just another "just so" story that may very well be tying together information that, in reality, doesn't go together.

- Jeff

[FrankO]

Thanks Frank. I understand your points above. But, to be fair Berner Street was an oasis of calm compared to Hanbury Street,...

That’s not what I mean, Jon. Around the time that Stride was murdered, quite a number of people hadn’t gone to bed and weren’t asleep yet. In fact, there were still people moving around in the nearby streets. People like Goldstein, Brown, Schwartz, Mortimer, Spooner, Krantz, Eagle, Lave. The chandler’s shop, less than 30 yards from Dutfield’s Yard, was still open. The building right next to where she was murdered, was full of people who were wide awake. Anybody could have appeared from the side door of the club that was left ajar. This would have been clear for whoever killed Stride.

In Chapman’s case, we see something entirely different. In the time leading up to Chapman’s murder, most people were still asleep in bed, as could be expected - although some might be expected to prepare and go to work. In fact, in Chapman’s case, we only have three witnesses at best: Albert Cadosh, Elizabeth Long and John Richardson. They were the only ones up and about in the vicinity of the murder spot before Chapman was discovered. And even though people could be expected to get up to go to work at any time/circumstances when Chapman was killed, the timing of her murder was still much more in line with the others than when Stride was killed.

...and if he was the Ripper what if he killed Stride and then noticed Schwartz, and he just legged it (to Mitre Sq), no mutilations?

So, you’re suggesting that Mr. BS, after pushing Stride well inside the yard, he cut her throat and only then noticed Schwartz and yelled ‘Lipski’? While I think that would physically be possible (it wouldn’t necessarily have taken much more than 5 seconds to get her 1.5 meters inside the yard, pull her down & cut her throat), I still have a hard time seeing it as a credible scenario, especially for the Ripper.

Based on what we know from the other murders, I don’t see the Ripper walk up to a woman, immediately attack & then kill her with no concern for anybody possibly witnessing it, paying no attention to his immediate surroundings, only to become aware of one or more witnesses after the deed. This scenario reads more like someone who had an axe to grind with Stride and who was so drunk and/or enraged that he didn’t care if anybody would see it.

Cheers,
Frank

[FrankO]

Best and Gardner say they saw Stride at the Bricklayer's Arms Pub around 11, a short man with a dark mustache and sandy eyelashes. The man was wearing a billycock hat, mourning suit and coat. That is not all that far off Schwartz's description of man about 30 years old, 5' 5" tall with a fresh complexion, dark hair and small brown mustache dressed in an overcoat and an old black felt hat with a wide brim. Marshall later reports that at 11:45 Stride is with a man in a short black cutaway coat and sailor's hat outside number 63. They are kissing and carrying on. He hears the man say "You would say anything but your prayers." The "kissing and carrying on" also describes how Best and Gardner's man was interacting with Stride, which makes me wonder if she's still with the same fellow. PC Smith's man was described as 28 years old, dark coat and hard deerstalker hat. He is carrying a parcel approximately 6 inches high and 18 inches in length. the package is wrapped in newspaper.

While the police reports suggest that Schwartz and Smith are probably describing different men, to me the two descriptions could be of the same person (but I admit they are so generic they could also be two entirely different people). And given the errors of detail that are associated with eye-witness reports, it is not out of the question that all of these people are trying to recall details of the same man.

I fully admit I'm well beyond anything that can be considered "solid", but if I can beg an indulgence for a bit longer, let's consider the possibility that indeed, Stride has been with the same fellow since 11:00, and that the conflict in the descriptions between Best and Gardner, Marshall, PC Smith, and Schwartz are due to the infallibility of eye-witness descriptions with regards to specific details. And we're left with the idea of a shortish fellow, with a mustache, an overcoat of some sort, and wearing a hat. Stride and this fellow had been at the Bricklayers Arms earlier that night, leaving at 11, and that is just north of where Stride was murdered.

Hi Jeff,

You made a good point here. Eye-witness descriptions of a person's looks, generally, aren't very reliable, but I don't think that can be said of how a person behaves. And in this case, the man or men seen with Stride on several occasions all behave in a similar fashion. Best said the main was hugging and kissing the woman, Marshall said they were talking quietly together, that he was kissing and cuddling her and that neither seemed the worst for drink, Smith said they seemed sober and were talking together. All three men were described, generally, as respectably or well dressed. Could well be one and the same man.

Cheers,
Frank

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

You made a good point here. Eye-witness descriptions of a person's looks, generally, aren't very reliable, but I don't think that can be said of how a person behaves. And in this case, the man or men seen with Stride on several occasions all behave in a similar fashion. Best said the main was hugging and kissing the woman, Marshall said they were talking quietly together, that he was kissing and cuddling her and that neither seemed the worst for drink, Smith said they seemed sober and were talking together. All three men were described, generally, as respectably or well dressed. Could well be one and the same man.

Cheers,
Frank

Thanks Frank. As I say, I'm in no way suggesting that these had to be the same man, and it is entirely possible they were not. Rather, all I was suggesting is that there are arguments to be made against dismissing entirely the notion that Stride might have been with the same man, who in turn was B.S., for quite a long time. And if that were the case, then some of her behaviours earlier in the evening that some have argued indicated she was planning on meeting someone would suggest that she knew this man prior to their meeting. That could even offer one possible explanation for why she even had the cachous in the first place, where the flower came from, and given they were seen at the Bricklayers Arms just north of the crime scene, would fit with her waiting by the club while he, for whatever reason, went back there, and B.S. would be him returning from that trip, presumably unsuccessful with regards to his reason for going, explaining why he's now in a foul mood. It could have been something as simple as she left something of his at the pub, and having only just become aware of that, he goes back, the pub is closed, and he returns angry at her for losing something of his; turns her around, shoves her in the direction to go, she falls, Schwartz misinterprets that interaction (which would at that point be as c.d. argues, a shove and a fall, not a full on assault), but after Schwartz takes off, B.S. and Stride get into a further argument that gets tempers heated and he ends up killing her. While this wouldn't preclude B.S. from also being JtR, I think it would lower the probability that Stride was a victim of JtR. I'm ok with that as I've never been able to decide on whether or not Stride was a victim of the same killer as the rest of the C5.

Now, one issue with that story is that nobody in the club hears this supposed argument, which is a problem. However, there was singing going on inside, and as long as the proposed argument between Stride and B.S. doesn't turn into a shouting match, but is just angry but speaking level, it might only be a reasonable concern as opposed to a complete deal breaker.

Anyway, it's an idea, and nothing more than that. I'm not convinced of it myself, and no doubt will think of a few more weaknesses in it as well. But as you say, the similarity of the behaviours of some of the men struck me as interesting and potentially adds weight to the idea of linking them. Continuing those links to include B.S. may be a link too far, but then again, maybe it's the missing link?

Much of the idea began when I started to think about Wickerman's concern with the idea of B.S. spinning Stride round to face away from him. That led me to the idea of two people who know each other, and the fellow spins her and shoves her to "go in that direction" type thing. That suggested a possible acquaintance between them (but doesn't require it I admit), and eventually that grew into the above "just so" story. Ideas spawn ideas, and sharing them is how we get new perspectives; marrying ourselves to one idea is how we lose perspective though.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

But she would have seen Bs Man and Schwartz who weren't in the yard.

She would have seen anyone in the street

We know Schwartz passed her door and unless BS man had retraced his steps; he also would have passed her door.

She hears a man with heavy boots passing.

That can only have been Pc Smith, Schwartz, Bs man, Parcelman or Diemschitz

It wasn't Eagle or Lave (almost certainly)

Chris.
Mortimer never says she didn't see anyone.
Too much assumption is made over her statement - she said she didn't see anything unusual, she didn't say there was no-one in the street.
It's always subjective as to what any one person thinks is 'unusual', but a lot of members seem to think it means the street was empty, it wasn't, and she does not say it was.

I'm the last person to defend Mortimer, but we all have to take her words for what was reported, and not read more into them.

It is probably best to assume she saw several people in the street, but they were only casually talking, no shouting, no violence, nothing to attract attention, in her words - nothing unusual.

[FrankO]

Thanks Frank. As I say, I'm in no way suggesting that these had to be the same man, and it is entirely possible they were not. Rather, all I was suggesting is that there are arguments to be made against dismissing entirely the notion that Stride might have been with the same man, who in turn was B.S., for quite a long time. And if that were the case, then some of her behaviours earlier in the evening that some have argued indicated she was planning on meeting someone would suggest that she knew this man prior to their meeting. That could even offer one possible explanation for why she even had the cachous in the first place, where the flower came from, and given they were seen at the Bricklayers Arms just north of the crime scene, would fit with her waiting by the club while he, for whatever reason, went back there, and B.S. would be him returning from that trip, presumably unsuccessful with regards to his reason for going, explaining why he's now in a foul mood. It could have been something as simple as she left something of his at the pub, and having only just become aware of that, he goes back, the pub is closed, and he returns angry at her for losing something of his; turns her around, shoves her in the direction to go, she falls, Schwartz misinterprets that interaction (which would at that point be as c.d. argues, a shove and a fall, not a full on assault), but after Schwartz takes off, B.S. and Stride get into a further argument that gets tempers heated and he ends up killing her. While this wouldn't preclude B.S. from also being JtR, I think it would lower the probability that Stride was a victim of JtR. I'm ok with that as I've never been able to decide on whether or not Stride was a victim of the same killer as the rest of the C5.

Now, one issue with that story is that nobody in the club hears this supposed argument, which is a problem. However, there was singing going on inside, and as long as the proposed argument between Stride and B.S. doesn't turn into a shouting match, but is just angry but speaking level, it might only be a reasonable concern as opposed to a complete deal breaker.

Anyway, it's an idea, and nothing more than that. I'm not convinced of it myself, and no doubt will think of a few more weaknesses in it as well. But as you say, the similarity of the behaviours of some of the men struck me as interesting and potentially adds weight to the idea of linking them. Continuing those links to include B.S. may be a link too far, but then again, maybe it's the missing link?

Much of the idea began when I started to think about Wickerman's concern with the idea of B.S. spinning Stride round to face away from him. That led me to the idea of two people who know each other, and the fellow spins her and shoves her to "go in that direction" type thing. That suggested a possible acquaintance between them (but doesn't require it I admit), and eventually that grew into the above "just so" story. Ideas spawn ideas, and sharing them is how we get new perspectives; marrying ourselves to one idea is how we lose perspective though.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I share most of the views in your post above. The only thing I don't see as much of a real possibility is that Mr. BS was also the man seen by Best, Marshall, Smith & even Brown. That is, taking into account the Star version of Schwartz's story, in which BS was clearly under the influence.

The fact that nobody in or close to the club heard anything of the supposed argument might indeed be explained if it was, as you say, just an angry argument at speaking volume or even in a low voice, which would go well with taking the argument off the open street by going just inside the yard. That might suggest that the two knew each other, just as the idea you had as a result of Wickerman's concern.

Cheers,
Frank

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman,

Oh, I wasn't suggesting your idea can be ruled out, and I hope I didn't come across as suggesting that. I would say, however, that Schwartz's statement as given does not mention Stride as being in company with anyone else. I get that you're suggesting the possibility that she was, only that her companion was out of sight to Schwartz as he was around the corner and in the ally....

Hi Jeff.

No, thats fine Jeff, I'm aware my view is not a strong argument. There's a bit of give & take in all the theories, but Schwartz was focused on the fracas in the gateway so I can forgive him for not seeing a third man in the shadows. He seemed to be more concerned for his own welfare than that of the woman.

...I fully admit I'm well beyond anything that can be considered "solid", but if I can beg an indulgence for a bit longer, let's consider the possibility that indeed, Stride has been with the same fellow since 11:00, and that the conflict in the descriptions between Best and Gardner, Marshall, PC Smith, and Schwartz are due to the infallibility of eye-witness descriptions with regards to specific details. And we're left with the idea of a shortish fellow, with a mustache, an overcoat of some sort, and wearing a hat. Stride and this fellow had been at the Bricklayers Arms earlier that night, leaving at 11, and that is just north of where Stride was murdered.

I do see the events begin with Stride at the Bricklayer's Arms about 11:00pm, then, with the same man she is walking up Berner Street around 45 minutes later. They buy grapes (in a parcel) from Packers shop, go stand across the road, noticed by PC Smith (Parcel-man & Stride) at about 12:35.
They cross the road to stand in the entrance of the yard when BS-man walks passed and assaults Stride for conducting her business. Schwartz walks passed the altercation and begins to run, BS-man leaves the scene. Parcel-man helps Stride to her feet and takes her deeper into the yard, and swiftly dispatches her.

I don't support the belief that Jack was a blitz-killer. In my view he courted them, he spent time with his victim before he attacked them. It was all part of the thrill for him.