Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[c.d.]

The Star`s version has Stride where she was found inside the gate
Yes, Schwartz believed he was witnessed an assault not murder but nothing in his statement gives the impression that Stride was alive after BS Man hurled his abuse at him.

Hello Jon,

It is implied. Otherwise Swanson would not have allowed for the possibility of her killer coming on to the scene after Schwartz left.

c.d.

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jon,

It is implied. Otherwise Swanson would not have allowed for the possibility of her killer coming on to the scene after Schwartz left.

c.d.

Agreed C.D., but nowhere in both Schwartz`s statements is there any indication that Stride was alive when Schwartz fled.

[c.d.]

Agreed C.D., but nowhere in both Schwartz`s statements is there any indication that Stride was alive when Schwartz fled.

Well then we are in agreement. But I will point out that neither is there any indication that she was most certainly dead when he fled.

c.d.

[Jon Guy]

Well then we are in agreement. But I will point out that neither is there any indication that she was most certainly dead when he fled.

c.d.

Yes, Swanson had to allow for another killer as Schwartz didn`t say he saw Stride killed, although Swanson entertains the idea.

Well, if we (as armchair sleuths) marry Schwartz`s statements, and the crime scene evidence she was dead.

[c.d.]

Yes, Swanson had to allow for another killer as Schwartz didn`t say he saw Stride killed, although Swanson entertains the idea.

Well, if we (as armchair sleuths) marry Schwartz`s statements, and the crime scene evidence she was dead.

Don't include me in that bunch. I think Schwartz just saw a little street hassle.

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

I believe the entire incident was invented by Schwartz; whose intentions were designed to make a point.

I also believe that the man who came forward to give a statement calling himself Schwartz, wasn't his real name, and I am currently putting together a reason for that assumption that I believe may just hold some water.

Has the man who interpreted for Schwartz ever been identified?

If he has; then I'd like to see if its the same man I have found.

If he hasn't, then I have a probable candidate.


I believe the man who claimed to be Schwartz gave his statement for a very important reason, and that it is potentially more important than has yet been realised in the context of the murder series as a whole.

[Jon Guy]

Don't include me in that bunch. I think Schwartz just saw a little street hassle.

c.d.

I wasn`t including you.

[c.d.]

I wasn`t including you.

Fair enough.

c.d.

[Elamarna]

But that is not the spot where her body was found and Swanson's report makes it clear that according to Schwartz she was alive when he left the scene.

c.d.

The actual spot described by Schwart is open to debate, on to the pavement? towards the gateway, and to attempt to fix it pricisely is I suggest a mistake.

Given Schwartz was clearly disturbed by what he saw, and is more concerned with hurring away then take detailed notice the exact movements, I submit there is no way that Schwartz could say if the throat had been cut or not when he moved off C.D.

Steve

[Sunny Delight]

Hi Sunny

BS Man (the Ripper) had already attacked (murdered) Stride when he noticed Schwartz on the other side of the road.

I don't believe there is any evidence to co-orborate that idea. If he did kill her as she was falling she still managed to scream out three times, albeit not very loudly. I think a more likely scenario if we are playing hypotheticals is that BS man after knocking Stride to the ground, maneuvers himself behind her, grasps her scarf as she is on her backside possibly in a sitting position. She tries to gather herself and reaches for some cachous and it is in those seconds that the killer grasps her scarf and strangles her before cutting her throat and fleeing long before Diemshutz appears on the scene.

[c.d.]

Hello Elamarna,

Schwartz's bravery (or lack thereof) isn't really relevant. His statement is what it is.

Swanson had to determine if Schwartz witnessed a murder or just a street hassle. To that end, I have to imagine the following questions would have been asked:

Was Stride laying on the ground or standing when you left the scene?;

Did you see blood on her throat or anywhere on her body?;

Did she have her hands up to her throat or appear to be in any physical distress?;

Did you see a knife in the hands of the B.S. man?

Now as you say he might not have been able to determine whether or not her throat had been cut but I have to believe that he would have been able to see the effects of her throat being cut.

Since Swanson allows for the appearance of a killer other than the B.S. man I think it is a reasonable conclusion (to me anyway) that Schwartz convinced him Stride was alive when he left.

c.d.

[c.d.]

She tries to gather herself and reaches for some cachous and it is in those seconds that the killer grasps her scarf and strangles her before cutting her throat and fleeing long before Diemshutz appears on the scene.

Are you saying that at this point her first concern would have been for the freshness of her breath?

c.d.

[Wickerman]

The detail that has often intrigued me is from Swanson's report, that BS-man stopped to speak to a woman standing in the gateway, that he "turned her around and threw her down".
If the woman was facing the street with her back to the yard, why turn her round to face the yard?

It seems more logical that she was standing with her back to the street as BS-man passed. He spoke to her, she either made no response or ignored him, so he reached out to turn her round to face him.
The report says BS-man tried to pull the woman into the street, the press version suggests he pushed her into the yard.

The important point for me is that it makes more sense if Stride was standing with her back to the street. If so, then there must have been a third person stood in the yard that she was facing, and talking to.
Schwartz didn't see the other figure in the shadows, BS-man may have seen someone, we can't be sure.

A scenario might be, that BS-man drunk, staggered passed, over heard a verbal exchange, something like "how much?" which irked BS-man, he reached out to the woman growling "we don't want your sort around 'ere", attempted to pull her out of the yard, she stumbled to the ground and yelped, or cried out in a low voice.
That is all Schwartz saw as he passed the gateway, he may have heard voices but he didn't understand English.

[JeffHamm]

The detail that has often intrigued me is from Swanson's report, that BS-man stopped to speak to a woman standing in the gateway, that he "turned her around and threw her down".
If the woman was facing the street with her back to the yard, why turn her round to face the yard?

It seems more logical that she was standing with her back to the street as BS-man passed. He spoke to her, she either made no response or ignored him, so he reached out to turn her round to face him.
The report says BS-man tried to pull the woman into the street, the press version suggests he pushed her into the yard.

The important point for me is that it makes more sense if Stride was standing with her back to the street. If so, then there must have been a third person stood in the yard that she was facing, and talking to.
Schwartz didn't see the other figure in the shadows, BS-man may have seen someone, we can't be sure.

A scenario might be, that BS-man drunk, staggered passed, over heard a verbal exchange, something like "how much?" which irked BS-man, he reached out to the woman growling "we don't want your sort around 'ere", attempted to pull her out of the yard, she stumbled to the ground and yelped, or cried out in a low voice.
That is all Schwartz saw as he passed the gateway, he may have heard voices but he didn't understand English.

Hi Wickerman,

That's an interesting idea. I suppose we would have to wonder why the "man in the ally" doesn't appear though, as Schwartz appears to have watched things for sufficient time that one would expect him to emerge. I suppose he could have retreated into the yard and gone in the club, but if so, no mention of that gets made by anyone in the club. If "ally man" is JtR, then perhaps he remains out of sight to avoid getting caught up in a potential escalation, with the intention of getting out of there should that transpire. Sadly, with nothing indicating "ally man's" presence, it's just one of those interesting possibilities.

But, it also got me thinking of two other things. The first being why he might turn her around to be facing away from him. That sounds like something someone would do if they are trying to force someone to "head that way" - turn them to face the direction they want them to move and then shove them in that direction, for example. While not definitive, that does sound like the sort of thing that might suggest that Stride knew her killer, but whether that means she knew him well or simply that they were together earlier that night in one of the pubs (and he's annoyed at her for ditching him), remains an open question.

The other idea I had was sort of a modification of what you suggest. Rather than Stride facing into the ally, all she really has to be is facing towards Fairclough as B.S. approaches from Commercial. If she was the woman spotted on Fairclough by Brown, then the suggestion might be she's looking for the man she was with to come back from that direction. Then, something like you suggest transpires along the lines of she doesn't respond to B.S., or perhaps rejects him as she's waiting for someone already, and that triggers his angry response. In this version, he is, as you say, turning her to face him, but we don't need to include "ally man".

Anyway, I think there are situations where turning her in either direction makes sense in a given situation. Our problem, of course, is we don't know what the situation was, so we can't really choose one over the other. That's a shame, as each of them suggest different lines of investigation (i.e. the "turn to go that way" idea would suggest looking at Kidney, and also looking at the reports of men she was possibly seen with earlier that night).

Oh well, every interesting idea tends to open up more doors than it closes. That's perhaps one of the reasons this case is so interesting.

- Jeff

[Fiver]

BS man may have indeed been Stride's killer; but if so, then it's unlikely that her killer was the Ripper.

For an intoxicated man to walk up to Stride and throw her down to the floor and make a scene so to speak; doesn't ring true in terms of the type of killer the Ripper was.

The bottom line is that he assault witnessed by Schwartz, is too public to be the work of the Ripper

Unless of.course BS man didn't exist in the first place.

I won;t completely rule out BS Man being the Ripper, but it seems very unlikely. The Ripper was very good at getting women to peacefully be alone with him and very good at not attracting attention. Broadshouldered Man did a rather poor job at both of those. That leads me to believe BS might have killed Stride, but he wasn't the Ripper.