Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[c.d.]

Hello R.D.,

When should we play the "convenient" card and when should we not? Can we say that it was convenient that Fanny included the phrase almost the whole time? Did she do that to cover herself?

You seem to have convinced yourself that Schwartz was lying and so see everything he said through "convenient glasses." Once you put them on it is hard to take them off.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman,

That's an interesting idea. I suppose we would have to wonder why the "man in the ally" doesn't appear though, as Schwartz appears to have watched things for sufficient time that one would expect him to emerge. I suppose he could have retreated into the yard and gone in the club, but if so, no mention of that gets made by anyone in the club. If "ally man" is JtR, then perhaps he remains out of sight to avoid getting caught up in a potential escalation, with the intention of getting out of there should that transpire. Sadly, with nothing indicating "ally man's" presence, it's just one of those interesting possibilities.
...

Hi Jeff.

Any time Stride was seen that night she was with a man, if we prefer to think she was suddenly alone, we have even more questions.

If she was indeed facing the yard when BS-man assaulted her, the man she was talking to, in my view, would have been Parcel-man. They were seen together in the street by PC Smith only minutes before, if Parcel-man was not with her, we have a question of "why?"
I suspect Parcel-man was her killer.

[Wickerman]

...

As I said in my previous post to Jon, the evidence we have tells us that the attack as passed on by Schwartz (or, at least, understood by the police) and the attack as it may have happened according to Blackwell are different attacks....

Precisely Frank.

Those who can't accept her being assaulted twice, are not accepting the evidence.
What Schwartz witnessed places Stride at a different spot than where she was found, there was no evidence she crawled or was dragged - authorities addressed that possibility.
Conclusion - she was attacked twice.

[Wickerman]

Agree completely.

For me; IF Schwartz was correct and BS Man assaulted Stride, then it stands to reason and logic that BS Man was the man who then cut her throat as Schwartz ran off. This then suggests that Stride wasn't a Ripper victim.

No Chris, your conclusion does not address the time difference of 5-10 mins, nor the distance of several feet, the body being found over 5-6 feet deeper inside the yard than the gateway, where the assault took place.

Though I do accept she may not have been a Ripper victim as all our interpretations are guesswork.

[Wickerman]

What we should be asking is...


"Why did nobody else who was known to be present in Berner Street at the time, see or hear anyone or anything that Schwartz claimed to have witnessed, shortly before Stride was murdered?"

That's the key question.

In fairness, we can't fault the killer for not slicing her throat in front of witnesses. She was seen opposite the yard with a client, she was seen in the gateway being assaulted, her body was found several feet inside the yard with her throat cut.
We have all the before's & after, just not the critical minute she was killed.
It's probably the only minute where nobody was looking, that he struck.

[Jon Guy]

Precisely Frank.

Those who can't accept her being assaulted twice, are not accepting the evidence.
What Schwartz witnessed places Stride at a different spot than where she was found, there was no evidence she crawled or was dragged - authorities addressed that possibility.
Conclusion - she was attacked twice.

Not true, Jon.
Schwartz gave 2 x statements. Both statements are by him but translated by 2 different people. So when he says " The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage". That`s where the body was found. Just inside the passage. Where the body was found.

[The Rookie Detective]

Precisely Frank.

Those who can't accept her being assaulted twice, are not accepting the evidence.
What Schwartz witnessed places Stride at a different spot than where she was found, there was no evidence she crawled or was dragged - authorities addressed that possibility.
Conclusion - she was attacked twice.

I respectfully disagree Jon.

Are we to believe that the same woman was attacked twice in the space of 15 minutes by 2 different men in the exact same location?

Are we to believe that after Bs man threw her to the ground, left the scene with her still alive, she got up...and moved just a few yards towards the club before being attacked again by someone completely different who appears from nowhere to cut her throat?

By accepting Schwartz's account, then logic denotes that BS man is the man who cut her throat.

If not, then Stride was the unluckiest woman on the planet that night/morning.

2 different men attacking the same woman, in the same space (give or take a few yards) within a 15 minute time frame?

If Stride was attacked by the first man; then why did she make the inexplicable decision to stay where she was and not raise any kind of alarm?

The main suspect that was initaily considered; was Parcelman.
He was seen engaging with Stride by a policeman and was not seen by anyone else afterwards.

But then came along the likes of Packer and Schwartz; who came out of the woodwork and who made the waters murky.

We know that Morris Eagle saw people in proximity to the club; because when asked if he saw anyone; he responds by using a double negative; ergo, he indirectly confirms that there were others present as he reentered the street. He just paid no particular attention to them.

Based on the timings it seems probable that as Eagle walked from the (locked) front door of the club that he had tried to enter; he walked past Stride and Parcelman without paying attention to them.

The issue is that if the police officer spots Parcelman around 12.35am; and Eagle arrives back at the club at around 12.40am; then Mortimer can't be at her door because she would have seen either Pc Smith, Parcelman or Stride.
We also have Lave, who confirmed he went as far as the street. But for Eagle to have not walked past him and for the police officer to have not seen Lave; it begs the question...when did Lave come out to the street?
Lave being in the street isn't the issue; but rather his route to and from the club without being seen by Eagle; or anyone else.
When Eagle gave a double negative and inadvertently confirms there were others around when he came back to the club; this would likely not be applicable to Lave, who shared the same physical route via the side door of the club.

In other words; Eagle and Lave do not cross paths; because if they had then at least one of the men would have mentioned seeing the other.

So we have a scenario whereby Stride can't be murdered until AFTER BOTH Eagle and Lave have gone back into the club via the side door.

And of course, unless Parcelman was Lave, then Parcelman also needs to be gone by the time Mortimer comes to her door...AND by 12.45am when Schwartz claims to have seen BS Man, Stride and Pipeman.

Of course; if Parcelman was also Bs Man then that can possibly be explained away.

But nobody has ever seemed to have considered that Parcelman was also Bs Man and therefore the man that Schwartz saw attacking Stride and also the same man that the Policeman had seen earlier.

You simply can't have Bs Man assault Stride when you have Brown passing the junction at the same time and Mortimer almost certainly at her door.

Mortimer didn't see the policeman, Eagle, Lave, Parcelman, Bs man, Schwartz, Pipeman OR Stride

And yet Mortimer claims to be at her door at some point.

How unusual that the only time that she is at her door is when all of the above are out of sight and earshot!

It's like the most incredible game of 'hide and seek.'

There is still no one who has yet to give a viable time frame in which the Schwartz incident happened.

We are only talking around 2 minutes for BS man to enter Berner Street, see Stride, randomly attack her approaching her and then spinning her around before throwing her down onto the floor, Stride screaming 3 times (but not loud enough for anyone other than Schwartz to hear it) Schwartz being no more than 10 yards away (based on his proximity to the gate) then Pipeman appearing just before Bs man SHOUTS "Lipski!" (That nobody else hears) and then Schwartz escaping the scene (that nobody else sees or hears) with Pipeman also briefly following (that nobody else sees or hears) and then BS Man either killing Stride and/or leaving the scene (that nobody else sees or hears) before Mortimer appears at her door (allegedly)

And how can Brown see and hear a couple on the corner by the board school at the SAME TIME that BS man is said to assault Stride just a few yards away?

Brown didn't see Schwartz, Pipeman or Bs Man and more crucially he never HEARD any screams or anyone shouting "Lipski."

When we use common sense and logic it is clear that the only reliable witness was the Policeman (Smith) who saw Stride with Parcelman.

Parcelman was the initial suspect for the murder but this became saturated by subsequent attempts to derail the investigation into Stride's murder.

[The Rookie Detective]

No Chris, your conclusion does not address the time difference of 5-10 mins, nor the distance of several feet, the body being found over 5-6 feet deeper inside the yard than the gateway, where the assault took place.

Though I do accept she may not have been a Ripper victim as all our interpretations are guesswork.

It stands to reason that the mistake that Schwartz made; was in getting his Geography wrong.

When he gives the statement it is apparent that he is indirectly implying that Bs man was the killer; because the likelihood of being attacked by 2 different men within a 15 minute time period, just a few yards apart; is beyond any viable probability.

[c.d.]

If Stride was attacked by the first man; then why did she make the inexplicable decision to stay where she was and not raise any kind of alarm?

An excellent question, R.D. A very simple and reasonable answer would be that rather than a vicious attack it was probably just a little street hassle. Maybe Stride herself was the instigator. We simply don't know. So at this point she was probably more pissed off than frightened and simply accepted it as a consequence of a lone woman being on the street by herself late at night right after the pubs closed.

c.d.

[c.d.]

When he gives the statement it is apparent that he is indirectly implying that Bs man was the killer; because the likelihood of being attacked by 2 different men within a 15 minute time period, just a few yards apart; is beyond any viable probability.

But then why did Swanson (a long time veteran of the Streets of Whitechapel) allow for that possibility? Was he incredibly incompetent, just plain stupid or naive?

As long as you see the B.S. man as a vicious attacker it is almost impossible to escape your conclusion. Change vicious attack to simply taking offense at Stride being at that spot and wanting her to move puts things in a completely different light and allows for a different conclusion.

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

If Stride was attacked by the first man; then why did she make the inexplicable decision to stay where she was and not raise any kind of alarm?

An excellent question, R.D. A very simple and reasonable answer would be that rather than a vicious attack it was probably just a little street hassle. Maybe Stride herself was the instigator. We simply don't know. So at this point she was probably more pissed off than frightened and simply accepted it as a consequence of a lone woman being on the street by herself late at night right after the pubs closed.

c.d.

Now that is an excellent and perfectly reasonable response.

That would explain why Stride didn't leave the scene and why she didn't scream her head off when she was thrown down onto the floor.

That would in turn suggest that Bs Man was not her killer.

And if so, then after he shouted "Lipski" and he saw Schwartz scarper; where did he go before either Mortimer arrived at her door, or Brown saw him, or the real killer arrived?

RD

[c.d.]

And if so, then after he shouted "Lipski" and he saw Schwartz scarper; where did he go before either Mortimer arrived at her door, or Brown saw him, or the real killer arrived?

Oh how I wish I knew but unfortunately I don't.

c.d.

[Lewis C]

There is still no one who has yet to give a viable time frame in which the Schwartz incident happened.

Hi RD,

I disagree. Jeff Hamm has posted a time frame on this site, and Tom Wescott has given a rather different time frame in Ripper Confidential. I think that both of their time frames are viable, and would be interested in an explanation for why they aren't.

And how can Brown see and hear a couple on the corner by the board school at the SAME TIME that BS man is said to assault Stride just a few yards away?

Brown didn't see Schwartz, Pipeman or Bs Man and more crucially he never HEARD any screams or anyone shouting "Lipski."

This is another of many instances in the case where we have to keep in mind that given times are not precise. One has to allow for at least 5 minutes on either side of any given time. So if one views it as a case of the Schwartz incident happening sometime between 12:40 and 12:50, or maybe even between 12:38 and 12:52, and does the same for Brown's walk to the store, then the 2 things need not have happened at the same time.

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi RD,

I disagree. Jeff Hamm has posted a time frame on this site, and Tom Wescott has given a rather different time frame in Ripper Confidential. I think that both of their time frames are viable, and would be interested in an explanation for why they aren't.



This is another of many instances in the case where we have to keep in mind that given times are not precise. One has to allow for at least 5 minutes on either side of any given time. So if one views it as a case of the Schwartz incident happening sometime between 12:40 and 12:50, or maybe even between 12:38 and 12:52, and does the same for Brown's walk to the store, then the 2 things need not have happened at the same time.

Ah, but then we fall into the same trap as is often the case when trying to fit everything in to suit the witnesses; some of which are almost certainly unreliable; often unintentionally so.

When we look at what the witnesses actually said; it's clear that the timeline simply doesn't work.
Hence why we feel compelled to manipulate the timings to suit the narrative.

In reality; Pc Smith's timings cause one of the greatest issues. Based on what he said, it should have meant he passed by the junction with Fairlcloth and Berner Street AGAIN around 1am. And yet he is nowhere to be seen after he walks back up Berner Street (from having walked down it first) between 12.30-12.35am.

When the alarm is raised he is not where he should have been in terms of his approximate route trajectory.

There's also the issue of Lave; who as the transient Russian Jew almost certainly on-the-run and seeking refuge in possibly the only place that would take him, is another anomaly whose words simply don't fit with anything else.

To some extent, Eagle is one of the most viable witnesses because he gives us a time he got back to the club and even tells us he tried the front door first. We also know where he was beforehand and based on his reaction after the body is found; he appears to play an active part in trying to get help from the police.
His reaction to being asked if he saw anyone, is also completely natural and realistic.

Brown is always dismissed because his 12.45am timing clashes with Schwartz, and for some inexplicable reason we choose to ignore Brown's viable eye witness account in which he saw and heard a man being rejected afte his advances failed over, over a man's dramatic tale of it all kicking off in the street, including inexplicable multiple muted screams and a man shouting "Lipski!"
One would think that the fact we have no idea who Schwartz was; because he doesn't exist on any records, would be reason enough to question his validity as a so called witness... and yet it doesn't.

Now we DO have an account of 2 men running from the scene; and an implication that the presumed killer was chased as he fled the scene by a witness who chased him.

But this is largely overlooked for whatever reason.

The only incident even closely resembling that was when Schwartz claimed he fled from the scene and Pipeman possibly followed behind him up to a point.

But that would implicate Schwartz as the man who was the presumed killer.

Did Schwartz go to the police and give an account of what he saw; but not with the intention of sharing what he saw...but rather to give himself an alibi for why he was chased from the scene?

By going to the police Schwartz doesn't just give his account of what happened; he gives justification for why he was there in the first place...and by proxy provides the perfect alibi to the incompetent police who couldn't look past the idea that the killer was a Lunatic with clear signs of being a killer.

Schwartz looked theatrical for a reason.

[FrankO]

But according to Blackwell Stride`s scarf was pulled tightly to the left, so no-one was pulled backwards.

Hi Jon,

Even though he said it was pulled tight to the left, he still also suggested that she was pulled backwards.

But let's go with what you seem to suggest: Stride had tied her bow to the left of her neck and she was actually pulled from her left side instead of behind. For her to end up on her left side, as she was found, she would have to have been standing facing the wall and quite close to it and her killer would have to have been standing to her left.

I don't know about you, but I think this scenario doesn't feel all that natural. Of course, she may well have tied her scarf in a bow to the left of her neck before going out, but would that have been normal fashion back then & there? But more importantly, why would she stand about a foot away from the wall while facing it? I can imagine such a thing if her killer is already threatening her with a knife, pacing right behind her, but why not simply cut her throat from behind then? Why pull her to the ground from her left and only cut her throat while falling down or right after hitting the ground? Sounds rather awkward to me.

The best,
Frank