Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[Fiver]

Agreed C.D., but nowhere in both Schwartz`s statements is there any indication that Stride was alive when Schwartz fled.

The 19 October 1888 Report says that Schwartz said "the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly" after she was thrown to the ground. That's rather hard to do if Stride's throat had already been cut.

[Jon Guy]

The 19 October 1888 Report says that Schwartz said "the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly" after she was thrown to the ground. That's rather hard to do if Stride's throat had already been cut.

Dr Blackwell stated: I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way. The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground.

[Jon Guy]

I don't believe there is any evidence to co-orborate that idea. If he did kill her as she was falling she still managed to scream out three times, albeit not very loudly.

It`s all in Schwarzt`s statement. Why are the screams not very loud? Perhaps her scarf is being pulled tight as she`s pulled down ?

I think a more likely scenario if we are playing hypotheticals is that BS man after knocking Stride to the ground, maneuvers himself behind her, grasps her scarf as she is on her backside possibly in a sitting position. She tries to gather herself and reaches for some cachous and it is in those seconds that the killer grasps her scarf and strangles her before cutting her throat and fleeing long before Diemshutz appears on the scene.

She reaches for cachous ... oh please !! She tries to gather herself ... lol

[FrankO]

Dr Blackwell stated: I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way. The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground.

Hi Jon,

But the thing Schwartz stated to have witnessed happened in the entrance to the yard with Mr. BS in front of Stride and not behind her in the yard, while what Blackwell is talking about what happened in the yard, beyond the opened gates, on the spot where she was later found. For Stride to end up with her head further down the yard by being pulled backwards, her killer had to have been standing behind her, i.e. further down the yard than she was. From Swanson's report it's quite clear that Mr. BS was not in the yard when he stopped to speak to Stride. It says he "tried to pull her into the street, but he turned her around & threw her down on the footway". That's clearly not the position Stride's body was later found at.

Seeing that the gates could be closed without touching Stride's feet, her feet were at least 1.5 meters inside the yard and her head perhaps 1 to 1.2 meters further inside the yard. That means her killer would have been at least some 2.5 meters inside the yard and away from the position where Schwartz said he saw Mr. BS.

So, unless Schwartz mistakenly spoke about the street and the footway as per Swanson's report or it got mistranslated or misunderstood, the evidence tells us that the attack that Schwartz and Blackwell spoke about were different attacks.

Cheers,
Frank

[FrankO]

I think a more likely scenario if we are playing hypotheticals is that BS man after knocking Stride to the ground, maneuvers himself behind her, grasps her scarf as she is on her backside possibly in a sitting position. She tries to gather herself and reaches for some cachous and it is in those seconds that the killer grasps her scarf and strangles her before cutting her throat and fleeing long before Diemshutz appears on the scene.

Hi Sunny,

As I said in my previous post to Jon, the evidence we have tells us that the attack as passed on by Schwartz (or, at least, understood by the police) and the attack as it may have happened according to Blackwell are different attacks. What seems a more logical/fitting scenario, to me anyway, is that Stride and Mr. BS to go into the yard to continue their 'argument' and that he snaps while she, at some point, turns away from him. So, he grabs her scarf from behind with his left hand and pulls her backwards. Because she's pulled backwards from the left side of her neck, she spins to her left while falling and ends up on her left side. Her killer either cuts her throat with his right hand while he's pulling her backwards (and she's falling against him and slides down) or he does that right after she hit the ground.

Cheers,
Frank

[The Rookie Detective]

I won;t completely rule out BS Man being the Ripper, but it seems very unlikely. The Ripper was very good at getting women to peacefully be alone with him and very good at not attracting attention. Broadshouldered Man did a rather poor job at both of those. That leads me to believe BS might have killed Stride, but he wasn't the Ripper.

Agree completely.

For me; IF Schwartz was correct and BS Man assaulted Stride, then it stands to reason and logic that BS Man was the man who then cut her throat as Schwartz ran off. This then suggests that Stride wasn't a Ripper victim.

or..

Schwartz wasn't correct and/or lied and wasn't even there, Bs Man didn't exist, the assault that nobody else saw or heard didn't even happen and Stride was murderd by the Ripper, or a member of the club, in the dark; possibly by Parcelman, who did exist. Schwartz's statement is there to discount Stride as a Ripper victim because BS Man did not behave whatsoever like a clinical psychopath.


That's the crux of it for me.

[FrankO]

But that is not the spot where her body was found and Swanson's report makes it clear that according to Schwartz she was alive when he left the scene.

c.d.

Indeed, c.d., if we follow the evidence, it's quite clear that the attack as passed on by Schwartz took place at the entrance of the yard and not inside it, and the attack Blackwell proposed clearly took place inside the yard, where Stride was later found, which was perhaps even the darkest spot.

[The Rookie Detective]

What we should be asking is...


"Why did nobody else who was known to be present in Berner Street at the time, see or hear anyone or anything that Schwartz claimed to have witnessed, shortly before Stride was murdered?"

That's the key question.

[Elamarna]

Hello Elamarna,

Schwartz's bravery (or lack thereof) isn't really relevant. His statement is what it is.

Swanson had to determine if Schwartz witnessed a murder or just a street hassle. To that end, I have to imagine the following questions would have been asked:

Was Stride laying on the ground or standing when you left the scene?;

Did you see blood on her throat or anywhere on her body?;

Did she have her hands up to her throat or appear to be in any physical distress?;

Did you see a knife in the hands of the B.S. man?

Now as you say he might not have been able to determine whether or not her throat had been cut but I have to believe that he would have been able to see the effects of her throat being cut.

Since Swanson allows for the appearance of a killer other than the B.S. man I think it is a reasonable conclusion (to me anyway) that Schwartz convinced him Stride was alive when he left.

c.d.

We will have to respectfully disagree, in my view there is no way Schwartz could have known if her throat had been cut. Swanson was merely allowing for all possibilities, given the lack of solid evidence with regards to if the throat was cut or not.

Steve

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jon,

But the thing Schwartz stated to have witnessed happened in the entrance to the yard with Mr. BS in front of Stride and not behind her in the yard, while what Blackwell is talking about what happened in the yard, beyond the opened gates, on the spot where she was later found. For Stride to end up with her head further down the yard by being pulled backwards, her killer had to have been standing behind her, i.e. further down the yard than she was. From Swanson's report it's quite clear that Mr. BS was not in the yard when he stopped to speak to Stride. It says he "tried to pull her into the street, but he turned her around & threw her down on the footway". That's clearly not the position Stride's body was later found at.

Seeing that the gates could be closed without touching Stride's feet, her feet were at least 1.5 meters inside the yard and her head perhaps 1 to 1.2 meters further inside the yard. That means her killer would have been at least some 2.5 meters inside the yard and away from the position where Schwartz said he saw Mr. BS.

So, unless Schwartz mistakenly spoke about the street and the footway as per Swanson's report or it got mistranslated or misunderstood, the evidence tells us that the attack that Schwartz and Blackwell spoke about were different attacks.

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank

From The Star version " The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage"

[Jon Guy]

What we should be asking is...


"Why did nobody else who was known to be present in Berner Street at the time, see or hear anyone or anything that Schwartz claimed to have witnessed, shortly before Stride was murdered?"

That's the key question.

Who else said they were in Berner Street at 12.45 ?

[FrankO]

Hi Frank

From The Star version " The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage"

Quite right, Jon, but this version doesn't say anything about Stride falling, nor about how far into the passage she was pushed. Anyway, this version of the attack doesn't fit either with Blackwell's notion that the killer took hold of her scarf, pulled her backwards and then cut her throat. Or, at least, not in my view.

The best,
Frank

[The Rookie Detective]

Who else said they were in Berner Street at 12.45 ?

James Brown - at the same time as Schwartz claimed he saw BS Man and Pipeman)

The couple on the corner seen by Brown ("No, not tonight" man and almost certainly Stride)

...because if the woman seen by Brown wasn't Stride; then why didn't Schwartz see the same couple and yet see Pipeman who appeared just yards away from the couple's position on the corner?

If the couple on the corner was not Stride, then we have another couple to account for. We know there was a "courting couple" that were there and seen by Mortimer; but the timing for there presence in the vicinity appears to have been earlier.

Let's not forget that as Brown walked past the junction, he was closer to the couple on the corner, than Mortimer was standing at her door.

Then we have Fanny...

Fanny Mortimer (to and from her door more times than someone with OCD checking the locks)

She may have been there, she may not have been. As a potential witness, she is like marmite in that respect

and then...

Joseph Lave (went as far as the street)

Lave did say that he was there at a time that would have encroached very close to 12.45am.

Packer (okay, forget packer)

Pipeman (okay, maybe not him either)

Plus those in the club within earshot of the yard who heard nothing. There were at least 2 people in the club who would have heard a woman being attacked in the gateway to the yard.

Bearing in mind that it's not just the visual aspect; it's also the audible sound created from a man throwing a woman to the floor.

The convenient translation of Stride screaming "...but not very loudly" serves to cover Schwartz's back if the police can't understand why nobody heard the assault.

There is not a woman in history who after being thrown down on the floor by an aggressive man will make the conscious decision to make her screams quiet enough for nobody else to hear her.

How convenient that she chose to scream not very loudly.

It's precisely the combination of 'screaming 3 times' PLUS 'not very loudly' that shows there is something wrong here and/or an issue with that particular translation.

But of course; if we dismiss Brown, Mortimer, the couple on the corner, Lave, and anyone in the club, then I guess the Schwartz incident could have happened just as he said it did.

[Jon Guy]

Quite right, Jon, but this version doesn't say anything about Stride falling, nor about how far into the passage she was pushed. Anyway, this version of the attack doesn't fit either with Blackwell's notion that the killer took hold of her scarf, pulled her backwards and then cut her throat. Or, at least, not in my view.

The best,
Frank

True, but we can marry both of Schwartz`s statements to see if we can get a clearer picture, based on the crime scene evidence

But according to Blackwell Stride`s scarf was pulled tightly to the left, so no-one was pulled backwards.

[Jon Guy]

James Brown - at the same time as Schwartz claimed he saw BS Man and Pipeman)

The couple on the corner seen by Brown ("No, not tonight" man and almost certainly Stride)

...because if the woman seen by Brown wasn't Stride; then why didn't Schwartz see the same couple and yet see Pipeman who appeared just yards away from the couple's position on the corner?

If the couple on the corner was not Stride, then we have another couple to account for. We know there was a "courting couple" that were there and seen by Mortimer; but the timing for there presence in the vicinity appears to have been earlier.

Let's not forget that as Brown walked past the junction, he was closer to the couple on the corner, than Mortimer was standing at her door.

Then we have Fanny...

Fanny Mortimer (to and from her door more times than someone with OCD checking the locks)

She may have been there, she may not have been. As a potential witness, she is like marmite in that respect

and then...

Joseph Lave (went as far as the street)

Lave did say that he was there at a time that would have encroached very close to 12.45am.

Packer (okay, forget packer)

Pipeman (okay, maybe not him either)

Plus those in the club within earshot of the yard who heard nothing. There were at least 2 people in the club who would have heard a woman being attacked in the gateway to the yard.

Bearing in mind that it's not just the visual aspect; it's also the audible sound created from a man throwing a woman to the floor.

The convenient translation of Stride screaming "...but not very loudly" serves to cover Schwartz's back if the police can't understand why nobody heard the assault.

There is not a woman in history who after being thrown down on the floor by an aggressive man will make the conscious decision to make her screams quiet enough for nobody else to hear her.

How convenient that she chose to scream not very loudly.

It's precisely the combination of 'screaming 3 times' PLUS 'not very loudly' that shows there is something wrong here and/or an issue with that particular translation.

But of course; if we dismiss Brown, Mortimer, the couple on the corner, Lave, and anyone in the club, then I guess the Schwartz incident could have happened just as he said it did.

Hi RD

The couple that Brown saw were leaning against the board school in Fairclough Street (not Berner Street). It was not Stride