Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[JeffHamm]

With utmost respect; this particular sequence above is a convoluted mess.


The following 2 scenarios are more simplified versions that achieve the same thing...


12.42am - After having been seen by Pc Smith and having observed Eagle walk into the yard, Parcelman and Stride walk over to the gateway and stand out of sight.

12.43am - Parcelman pulls Stride backward by her scarf, drags her to the floor and savagely cuts her throat in a bid to decapitate.

12.44am - Parcelman walks away and heads past Mortimer's house before slipping down the alleyway into BackChurch Lane. Mortimer hears him passing her door.

12.45am - Mortimer is at her door but can't see anyone. Stride is already dead and out of sight in the dark of the yard.

12.55am - Goldstein walks down Berner Street

1am - Stride is found



OR


12.42am - as above but with Parcelman leaving Stride alive and either going into the club (he's Lave) OR he walks north past Mortimer just as Stride walks into the yard and out of sight. She stands there waiting for someone.


12.43am - Mortimer comes to her door

12.53am - an unidentified man joins Stride either by coming out of the club OR from one of the cottages in the yard.

12.55am - Goldstein walks down Berner Street and is observed by Mortimer.
Goldstein walks past the entrance to the yard just as Stride is being murdered by the man who joined her just a couple of minutes earlier. Goldstein sees the killer and walks hurriedly away. He recognises the killer as a club member; possibly Lave.

12.56am - Mortimer goes inside.


1am - Stride is found


Either way, the key point is that Mortimer never sees Stride

You've left out Schwartz though, and you have Fanny outside for 12 minutes, rather than the 10 she says. Schwartz doesn't see Stride with anyone, but sees Broad Shoulders ahead of him as they both come from Commercial towards the gate. So Schwartz and B.S. have to come down after PC Smith has passed around 12:42, but PC Smith has to have exited before Schwartz and B.S. come down, and that would require about a minute. Since B.S. is not going to assault Stride while she's with another man (Parcelman), that just leaves your 2nd possibility. Given the events described by Schwartz would require about 90s (to the point he exits Berner Street to the south on Fairclough), and given Fanny comes out after B.S. walks past her house, then
12:42 PC Smith passes
12:43 PC Smith exits Berner Street while Stride crosses to the gate and Parcelman leaves
12:43 Schwartz and B.S. enter Berner (just after PC Smith has turned east on Commercial)
12:44:30 Schwartz exits Berner to the south
12:44:45 B.S. has killed Stride
12:45:45 B.S. has walked by Fanny's house and exited via Commercial (less time if he exits via the ally as you suggest)
12:46 Fanny emerges

Those 2 extra minutes assigned to Fanny's vigil would be the roughly 2 minutes required for the events described by Schwartz to occur and still make sense of things in the way you propose without having to suggest that for reasons nobody has ever been able to adequately explain, Schwartz makes up some story about seeing Stride being assaulted.

In short, there's nothing in what you describe that can't simply include Schwartz as yet another witness to events of that night.

Obviously, there is room to suggest widening some of the time between events, like PC Smith's exiting and Schwartz and B.S. entering Berner, but that just makes things easier and would only shift Fanny's appearance by such a short amount that it would make no difference, particularly as she's likely to have been on her doorstep for less than the 10 minutes she estimated (based upon research of people's estimation of durations, which I've presented a fair few times before).

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So you agree that the three sounds Stride made were not very loud sounds, since it is recorded that way. And isn't the volume of the sounds the most critical aspect, whether they be called screams, yells, shouts, calls, or whatnot. In the end, it is whether or not they were very loud sounds, and since they are recorded as being not very loud, we have our answer - don't we?

- Jeff

An answer to the question; How loud is a not very loud scream? No, we don't have our answer.

[Herlock Sholmes]

With utmost respect; this particular sequence above is a convoluted mess.


The following 2 scenarios are more simplified versions that achieve the same thing...


12.42am - After having been seen by Pc Smith and having observed Eagle walk into the yard, Parcelman and Stride walk over to the gateway and stand out of sight.

12.43am - Parcelman pulls Stride backward by her scarf, drags her to the floor and savagely cuts her throat in a bid to decapitate.

12.44am - Parcelman walks away and heads past Mortimer's house before slipping down the alleyway into BackChurch Lane. Mortimer hears him passing her door.

12.45am - Mortimer is at her door but can't see anyone. Stride is already dead and out of sight in the dark of the yard.

12.55am - Goldstein walks down Berner Street

1am - Stride is found

This scenario then has both Eagle and Levy not seeing two people standing feet away out in the open across from the club. If Smith could see them why couldn’t they?

Why would Parcelman watch Eagle going into the yard and think “that’s a great place to commit a murder. People walking around, punters ready to go home…ideal.”


OR


12.42am - as above but with Parcelman leaving Stride alive and either going into the club (he's Lave) OR he walks north past Mortimer just as Stride walks into the yard and out of sight. She stands there waiting for someone.


12.43am - Mortimer comes to her door

12.53am - an unidentified man joins Stride either by coming out of the club OR from one of the cottages in the yard.

12.55am - Goldstein walks down Berner Street and is observed by Mortimer.
Goldstein walks past the entrance to the yard just as Stride is being murdered by the man who joined her just a couple of minutes earlier. Goldstein sees the killer and walks hurriedly away. He recognises the killer as a club member; possibly Lave.
12.56am - Mortimer goes inside.


1am - Stride is found


Either way, the key point is that Mortimer never sees Stride

My scenario explains everything and leaves nothing out. That said, I still make no claim that this must have been precisely what occurred as other variations could also explain what occurred without us being able to corroborate in 2024. It gives a possible explanation for why the murder occurred where it did. It gives a possible explanation of who the mysterious couple where that spoke to Fanny and why they said what they apparently did . It gives a possible description of Stride’s movements without her having to remain across the street invisible to Lave and Eagle. It incorporates Letchford’s sister. It explains why Spooner didn’t see Goldstein who undoubtedly headed along Fairclough Street.

All through this thread and others we have had people picking minor faults with every proposed scenario and now I’ve come up with one that incorporates everything you describe it as a mess.

What we do know is that there was no cover-up, plot, conspiracy, false witness or anything like that. It’s long past time all of that was put to bed. Can we really believe that Parcelman stood with Stride for 10 minutes across from the club unseen by Schwartz, Lave or Eagle and only then decided that Dutfield’s Yard made an ideal spot for a murder? And of course neither of your scenarios account for Schwartz who was undoubtedly there and saw the incident as claimed. Any suggestion that Schwartz lied and placed himself at the scene of a murder can and should be consigned to the dustbin. Worse still, any insane suggestion that he was the murderer and admitted to being there when he had no need to, needs to be consigned to the dustbin and then burned.

Liz Stride was killed by BSMan, whoever he was. A simple murder.

[The Rookie Detective]

Another suggestion as to what happened that night. I’m not saying that this is exactly what did occur because we can never know but I’m adding approximate times as a guide. I’m also adding explanations. Whether it is liked or not it explains everything.

11.45 - William Marshall sees Stride talking to BSMan. Stride is trying to get rid of BSMan because he’s a nuisance. She says that she’ll see him another time but BSMan doesn’t believe her saying “you’ll say anything but your prayers.” They part company.

12.30 - Charles Letchford passes along Berner Street but he pays no attention to Stride and Parcelman who are standing talking opposite the club.

12.32 - PC. Smith passes on his beat. He sees the couple. As Smith passed the couple move on. Where to? Who knows?

12.33 - Joseph Lave exits the side door of the club and goes into the yard to get some air. He looks out into the street and all appears normal and quiet. He moves around the yard. Fanny Mortimer goes onto her doorstep after hearing Smith pass. The street is empty.

12.41 - Fanny goes back indoors to perform some household task or because her husband has called to her. At around the same time Joseph Lave goes back into the club.

12.42 - Morris Eagle returns from taking his girlfriend home. He knows that the front door of the club is locked at around this time but he tries it as it’s not locked at exactly the same time every night. He finds that it is locked so he uses the side door seeing nothing unusual. James Brown goes to fetch his supper and Edward Spooner and his girlfriend stroll along commercial Road from the pub. They turn into Batty Street then stroll south. They stop at the corner of Batty and Fairclough by the Board School chatting.

12.44 - James Brown returns with his supper and sees the couple. Spooner tries to get her to come home with him but she says:”“No, not to-night, some other night.” The couple then walk up to Christian Street and stand outside The Beehive pub. BSMan enters Berner Street from Commercial Road with Schwartz walking a few yards behind him.

12.45 - Stride returns and begins to walk north on Berner Street. She sees BSMan approaching and ducks into the gateway hoping that she hasn’t been seen. Unfortunately for her BSMan has seen her and he pulls her out into the street and the scene is witness by Schwartz and Pipeman (who had just walked into Berner Street and stopped in the doorway of The Nelson to light his pipe). Schwartz and Pipeman flee west Fairclough Street.

12.47 - BSMan loses his temper and cuts Stride’s throat. He exits the yard and leaves the street (direction unknown)

12.48 - Fanny Mortimer comes back onto her doorstep and looks out before bolting her door for the night. She sees Leon Goldstein passing on his way home. As Goldstein passes along Fairclough Street Spooner and his girlfriend are kissing and so they don’t see him pass.

12.50 - Charles Letchford’s sister goes onto her doorstep before locking up for the night. She sees nothing.

12.55 - Fanny goes back indoors.

1.00 - Diemschitz returns and finds Stride’s body.

1.02 - Diemschitz and Kozebrodsky run along Fairclough Street passing Spooner and his girlfriend.

1.03 - Spooner goes to the kerb and when they return he asks Diemschitz what’s happened. Spooner returns with Diemschitz and Kozebrodski. His girlfriend follows on. Lamb heads out to look for a PC and Kozebrodski goes with him.

1.05 - They return with Lamb and Ayliffe. Ayliffe is sent for Blackwell and Eagle is sent to Leman Street.

1.06 - Smith arrives.

1.07 - Fanny talks to Spooner and his girlfriend who said that they had been around from before the murder (around 12.45) until after (when Louis passed) and they’d seen or heard nothing. Not surprising considering their location.

1.10 - Johnson arrives

1.16 - Blackwell arrives.

With utmost respect; this particular sequence above is a convoluted mess.


The following 2 scenarios are more simplified versions that achieve the same thing...


12.42am - After having been seen by Pc Smith and having observed Eagle walk into the yard, Parcelman and Stride walk over to the gateway and stand out of sight.

12.43am - Parcelman pulls Stride backward by her scarf, drags her to the floor and savagely cuts her throat in a bid to decapitate.

12.44am - Parcelman walks away and heads past Mortimer's house before slipping down the alleyway into BackChurch Lane. Mortimer hears him passing her door.

12.45am - Mortimer is at her door but can't see anyone. Stride is already dead and out of sight in the dark of the yard.

12.55am - Goldstein walks down Berner Street

1am - Stride is found



OR


12.42am - as above but with Parcelman leaving Stride alive and either going into the club (he's Lave) OR he walks north past Mortimer just as Stride walks into the yard and out of sight. She stands there waiting for someone.


12.43am - Mortimer comes to her door

12.53am - an unidentified man joins Stride either by coming out of the club OR from one of the cottages in the yard.

12.55am - Goldstein walks down Berner Street and is observed by Mortimer.
Goldstein walks past the entrance to the yard just as Stride is being murdered by the man who joined her just a couple of minutes earlier. Goldstein sees the killer and walks hurriedly away. He recognises the killer as a club member; possibly Lave.

12.56am - Mortimer goes inside.


1am - Stride is found


Either way, the key point is that Mortimer never sees Stride

[JeffHamm]

Drops mic!!!!

Another good reason why I don't do karaoke, for which you should all be grateful!

- Jeff

[Sunny Delight]

And the Lipski as an anti-semetic slur was Abberline's idea, not Schwartz's. Schwartz thought Lipski was shouted to Pipeman as his name, which we know was his original statement because the police started looking up all the Lipski families in the area based upon it. We also have the Home Office asking about the search for Lipski's, which is where Abberline informs them that he thinks Schwartz was mistaken and Lipski was actually directed at Schwartz as a slur.

So it is invalid to suggest that Schwartz added an "anti-semetic slur to get the club off the hook" because Schwartz didn't include an anti-semetic slur but a name. It was Abberline who introduced the slur idea .... so if one follows the usual argument that because Schwartz introduced an anti-semetic slur to get the club off the hook, then once we realise it was Abberline who introduced the slur then logically we are left with the conclusion that Abberline was trying to get the club off the hook!

Alternatively, we might then decide that perhaps the conclusion that the person who introduces Lipski as a slur is trying to get the club off the hook doesn't really follow. And in that case we have to accept that even if Schwartz was the one to introduce it the conclusion is just as invalid as what actually seems to have happened (Abberline is the source of "Lipski = slur at Schwartz").

Basically, the whole idea of Lipski as evidence of Schwartz aiding the club falls apart when one keeps track of the source of the Lipski was a slur idea, which we know was Abberline, not Schwartz.

- Jeff

Drops mic!!!!

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think that it’s also worth pointing out this snippet found by Debra Arif which clearly shows the insult ‘Lipski’ being used by. Jew toward a Jew. How likely is it that Debra found the only example ever spoken? Or was it in fairly general use? Yes, perhaps mostly by Gentiles toward Jews but not always.

[JeffHamm]

BS man is a diversion to draw focus away from the club and a little anti-semitic slur thrown in for good measure then gets the club off the hook too.

We don't know that R.D.

c.d.

And the Lipski as an anti-semetic slur was Abberline's idea, not Schwartz's. Schwartz thought Lipski was shouted to Pipeman as his name, which we know was his original statement because the police started looking up all the Lipski families in the area based upon it. We also have the Home Office asking about the search for Lipski's, which is where Abberline informs them that he thinks Schwartz was mistaken and Lipski was actually directed at Schwartz as a slur.

So it is invalid to suggest that Schwartz added an "anti-semetic slur to get the club off the hook" because Schwartz didn't include an anti-semetic slur but a name. It was Abberline who introduced the slur idea .... so if one follows the usual argument that because Schwartz introduced an anti-semetic slur to get the club off the hook, then once we realise it was Abberline who introduced the slur then logically we are left with the conclusion that Abberline was trying to get the club off the hook!

Alternatively, we might then decide that perhaps the conclusion that the person who introduces Lipski as a slur is trying to get the club off the hook doesn't really follow. And in that case we have to accept that even if Schwartz was the one to introduce it the conclusion is just as invalid as what actually seems to have happened (Abberline is the source of "Lipski = slur at Schwartz").

Basically, the whole idea of Lipski as evidence of Schwartz aiding the club falls apart when one keeps track of the source of the Lipski was a slur idea, which we know was Abberline, not Schwartz.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

Another suggestion as to what happened that night. I’m not saying that this is exactly what did occur because we can never know but I’m adding approximate times as a guide. I’m also adding explanations. Whether it is liked or not it explains everything.

11.45 - William Marshall sees Stride talking to BSMan. Stride is trying to get rid of BSMan because he’s a nuisance. She says that she’ll see him another time but BSMan doesn’t believe her saying “you’ll say anything but your prayers.” They part company.

12.30 - Charles Letchford passes along Berner Street but he pays no attention to Stride and Parcelman who are standing talking opposite the club.

12.32 - PC. Smith passes on his beat. He sees the couple. As Smith passed the couple move on. Where to? Who knows?

12.33 - Joseph Lave exits the side door of the club and goes into the yard to get some air. He looks out into the street and all appears normal and quiet. He moves around the yard. Fanny Mortimer goes onto her doorstep after hearing Smith pass. The street is empty.

12.41 - Fanny goes back indoors to perform some household task or because her husband has called to her. At around the same time Joseph Lave goes back into the club.

12.42 - Morris Eagle returns from taking his girlfriend home. He knows that the front door of the club is locked at around this time but he tries it as it’s not locked at exactly the same time every night. He finds that it is locked so he uses the side door seeing nothing unusual. James Brown goes to fetch his supper and Edward Spooner and his girlfriend stroll along commercial Road from the pub. They turn into Batty Street then stroll south. They stop at the corner of Batty and Fairclough by the Board School chatting.

12.44 - James Brown returns with his supper and sees the couple. Spooner tries to get her to come home with him but she says:”“No, not to-night, some other night.” The couple then walk up to Christian Street and stand outside The Beehive pub. BSMan enters Berner Street from Commercial Road with Schwartz walking a few yards behind him.

12.45 - Stride returns and begins to walk north on Berner Street. She sees BSMan approaching and ducks into the gateway hoping that she hasn’t been seen. Unfortunately for her BSMan has seen her and he pulls her out into the street and the scene is witness by Schwartz and Pipeman (who had just walked into Berner Street and stopped in the doorway of The Nelson to light his pipe). Schwartz and Pipeman flee west Fairclough Street.

12.47 - BSMan loses his temper and cuts Stride’s throat. He exits the yard and leaves the street (direction unknown)

12.48 - Fanny Mortimer comes back onto her doorstep and looks out before bolting her door for the night. She sees Leon Goldstein passing on his way home. As Goldstein passes along Fairclough Street Spooner and his girlfriend are kissing and so they don’t see him pass.

12.50 - Charles Letchford’s sister goes onto her doorstep before locking up for the night. She sees nothing.

12.55 - Fanny goes back indoors.

1.00 - Diemschitz returns and finds Stride’s body.

1.02 - Diemschitz and Kozebrodsky run along Fairclough Street passing Spooner and his girlfriend.

1.03 - Spooner goes to the kerb and when they return he asks Diemschitz what’s happened. Spooner returns with Diemschitz and Kozebrodski. His girlfriend follows on. Lamb heads out to look for a PC and Kozebrodski goes with him.

1.05 - They return with Lamb and Ayliffe. Ayliffe is sent for Blackwell and Eagle is sent to Leman Street.

1.06 - Smith arrives.

1.07 - Fanny talks to Spooner and his girlfriend who said that they had been around from before the murder (around 12.45) until after (when Louis passed) and they’d seen or heard nothing. Not surprising considering their location.

1.10 - Johnson arrives

1.16 - Blackwell arrives.

[c.d.]

BS man is a diversion to draw focus away from the club and a little anti-semitic slur thrown in for good measure then gets the club off the hook too.

Even if that is true, we don't know if it was intentional. Fanny's statements had consequences too. Were they intentional?

c.d.

[c.d.]

BS man is a diversion to draw focus away from the club and a little anti-semitic slur thrown in for good measure then gets the club off the hook too.

We don't know that R.D.

c.d.

[c.d.]

There's no evidence to suggest she was soliciting. On the contrary the evidence suggests she wasn't looking for a client.

And of course; just because she was a prostitute, doesn't mean she was always looking for a client.

On the night she was murdered she wasn't "working."

We don't know that for certain, R.D. And even if she were not "actively soliciting" we don't know what her response would have been if approached by Jack.

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

we also have to explain Stride's CHOICES AFTER she was assaulted.

They make perfect sense if it was just a little street hassle. If women on the street fled at the first drop of rain so to speak they would starve to death.

Believing Schwartz is one thing, but accepting BS man attacked her and didn't finish her off is a step beyond reasoning.

Chief Inspector Swanson disagreed with you.

c.d.

So after being assaulted Stride stayed where she was and didn't move into the street, go into the club, go for help, or go home.

The point then is... so who was she waiting for?

There's no evidence to suggest she was soliciting. On the contrary the evidence suggests she wasn't looking for a client.

And of course; just because she was a prostitute, doesn't mean she was always looking for a client.

On the night she was murdered she wasn't "working."

Which means she was there socially, perhaps on a date or waiting for someone to come out of the club.

She worked for the Jews and spoke Yiddish, so that gave her an in.


And yet she doesn't go into the club.


Why was she there?

Or more crucially...


Why did Stride stay exactly where she was AFTER BS man assaulted her?

If he didn't kill her of course.


The overriding issue is that the kill time could have been any time AFTER Stride is seen with Parcelman.

Parcel man was the primary suspect until Schwartz came along

By introducing Schwartz, we delay the kill time to any time AFTER Schwartz runs away circa 12.45am.

Schwartz not only gets Parcelman off the hook, but he also impacts on the kill time by reducing the window from AFTER 12.40am to AFTER 12.45am.


Interestingly, neither Schwartz nor Mortimer have any impact on the more likely kill time of around 12.55am.

In fact; after the alleged assault the street appears to go back to relative calm and tranquility.

Over and done as though it never even happened.


Interestingly; if we forget BOTH Mortimer and Schwartz, then after observing Lave and then Eagle walk through the yard and the sound of them going into the club, Parcelman had the time to walk across the road with Stride and through the gateway and then cut her throat and exit north and walk through the alleyway just north of Mortimer's House by the time anyone else is on the scene.

Perhaps Mortimer heard the killer leaving north just before she got to her door.

The killer Parcelman could have struck and left Stride dying between 12.41am-12.44am and nobody would have been none the wiser.

Mortimer's watch is then made redundant
As is Miss Letchford
As is the couple on the corner
As is Brown
As is Schwartz


The point is that nobody saw or heard the killer leave.

Schwartz provides us with BS Man as the killer and makes the idea of Stride having been a Ripper victim all the less likely.

But let's not forget...

The main result of Schwartz bringing us BS Man, is that it gets Parcelman off the hook.

Now why would that be necessary IF Parcelman wasn't already a member of the club?


BS man is a diversion to draw focus away from the club and a little anti-semitic slur thrown in for good measure then gets the club off the hook too.


But I agree that Mortimer should be scrutinised just as much as Schwartz.

The only difference being of course that Mortimer's claim of a man with a black bag passing down the street is then justified by Goldstein coming forward, and her talk of a couple on the corner is backed up also by Brown.

If only there was some way that Schwartz could be corroborated too.


Funny that

[c.d.]

we also have to explain Stride's CHOICES AFTER she was assaulted.

They make perfect sense if it was just a little street hassle. If women on the street fled at the first drop of rain so to speak they would starve to death.

Believing Schwartz is one thing, but accepting BS man attacked her and didn't finish her off is a step beyond reasoning.

Chief Inspector Swanson disagreed with you.

c.d.

[The Rookie Detective]

At various points we get suggestions of how long Fanny spent on her doorstep but we aren’t always certain of when we are reading her own words or a journalist’s interpretation. We get ‘most of the time between 12.30 and 1.00.’ We get that she went onto her doorstep just after Smith passed but this is also recorded as ‘just before 12.45.’ We also get that she spent 10 minutes on her doorstep and that after she went inside she heard Diemschitz cart around 4 minutes later. This is what’s is used to try and dismiss Schwartz…an indecipherable mess.

So let’s give Fanny two points. That she went onto her doorstep just after PC. Smith passed (so let’s call this approx 12.35) and that she went back indoors not long before Diemschitz returned (so let’s call this approx 12.55) So, in general, we have Fanny continually on her doorstep for the 20 minutes between around 12.35 and 12.55. Is this possible or likely?

No, it’s not because didn’t see Eagle return at around 12.40 (according to him) Could she have missed him if she was on her doorstep? No, he would have been 3 feet from her nose. She also didn’t see Stride arrive at the yard and we know that’s were she was found and we also know that she wasn’t beamed there by Scotty. Could a woman have arrived at the gates of Dutfield’s Yard with Fanny on sentry duty a mere 2 doors away? No. So reason tells us that between her first going onto her doorstep (at around 12.35) and her going back indoors (at around 12.55) Fanny must have gone back inside and come out again. Why? Who knows…the reason important.

So how long would she have had to have been indoors to have missed Eagle’s return and the Schwartz incident? I believe Jeff said that to enter and exit Berner Street would have been a matter of 90 seconds. It’s even possible that Eagle and BSMan were at one point both in Berner Street at the same time, with Eagle being up ahead. So Fanny would only have had to a gone back indoors for 2 or 3 minutes to have missed Eagle’s return and the incident. And would she have gone back inside to stand near to the door so as to hear what she could or is it likelier that she went inside because she had something to do; or that her husband had called her for some reason to perform some task?

I’m only going on what Fanny (possibly) said in the Press and then factoring in things that we know occurred that we know that she didn’t see so it seems an entirely reasonable suggestion that Fanny went back indoors for a short period. So, a timeline incorporating this and NW’s suggestion about Spooner and his girl.

…

Approximate times of course


12.32 - PC.Smith passes and sees the couple (who leave the street after he passes)

12.33 - Fanny comes onto her doorstep and sees nothing.

12.40 - Fanny goes indoors.

12.41- Eagle returns.

12.42 - Stride returns and meets BSMan at the gates and the Schwartz incident occurs.

12.44 - Fanny comes back onto her doorstep.

12.45 - Brown goes for his supper.

12.45 - Spooner and his girlfriend arrive after walking down Batty Street from Commercial Road to stand by the Board School on the corner of Batty and Fairclough.

12.48 - Brown returned and saw the couple. The couple then walked on to Christian Street

12.50 - Goldstein passed, seen by Fanny.

12.51 - Letchford’s sister goes to her doorstep to lock up and sees nothing.

12.55 - Fanny goes back indoors.

1.00 Fanny hears Diemschitz return.

….


Just another of the numerous possible scenarios showing that there is nothing remotely suspicious about the events of that night. Yes, there are things that we have no definitive explanation for but that doesn’t mean that these events are inexplicable or mysterious.

Arguably, the last confirmed sighting of Stride being alive and well, was when she was seen by PC Smith at some point between 12.28am - 12.38am.

That allows for a slight and reasonably plausible extension of the time parameters; based on the idea that Pc Smith timings were wrong.

Stride is with Parcelman

if we are to believe that the other couple who were seen by Brown and referenced by Mortimer were indeed standing in Faircloth St by the Board School and NOT Stride, then it leaves Parcelman as the last person seen with the victim.

But then there's BS Man...

More about him in a mo...

We then have Lave who placed himself at the scene. He claims to go as far as the street, and who had to have physically walked directly past the exact spot Stride was later murdered.

We also have Eagle, who also places himself at the scene. He confirms he walked directly past the exact spot Stride was later found. By stating he tried the front entrance and found it to be locked, he also has to walk past the murder site to go back inside the club.

Independent of each other; Eagle both claim to have gone back into the club at approximately the same time; circa 12.40am

But based on PC Smith, Mortimer and Schwartz, it seems certain that both Eagle and Lave were indeed back inside the club by 12.45am at the absolute latest.

Nobody sees Eagle OR Lave go back into the club

Nobody sees Parcel man go anywhere


It would seem possible that Lave may have been Parcelman.
This would explain the where and when for Lave and Parcel man.

So... back to BS Man...

Bs Man wasn't Parcelman. Their respective physical descriptions simply do not come close enough to be considered as being the same man.


So now let's look at things from Stride's perspective...

The alleged assault on her committed by BS Man at some point AFTER 12.40am.

Seeing as neither Pc Smith, Lave or Eagle witnessed the assault, we can be certain that the earliest the assault took place was 12.40am.

Schwartz tells us the assault took place about 12.45am

Brown also gives the same approximate time of 12.45am; that he saw the couple on the corner as he made his was back from the shop on the corner.

But the assault couldn't have occurred when Brown was there and so let's push his timing back to circa 12.50am.

That way, he doesn't clash with the timings given by Schwartz.

So far, so good.


Let's also keep Mortimer indoors for now, as it can also be considered certain that Mortimer was NOT at her door when the assault took place.

So by pushing Brown back by about 5 minutes and keeping Mortimer indoors; we now have time and space for the assault to fit into the window around 12.45am


So...let's put ourselves in Stride's shoes...



I have just been talking with a young man with a parcel on the opposite side of the road to the club.

A policeman walks past and sees me with this man.

The policeman walks off just as another man steps out from the yard and comes as far as the street. He must be getting some fresh air. He doesn't notice me.
He walks back into the yard and back into the building.

Another man then walks up to the front door and I notice that he can't get in. The door must be locked. He then walks into the yard and goes into the same building.

The young man I am with then walks off and I cross the road and stand in the gateway.

it must be about 12.45am now.

As I get to the gateway I turn around and see another man. He looks a little tipsy. I best stay clear.

Before I can even react, this man just rushes up to me and tries to drag me into the street. I try and fight him off but he's strong on account of those broad shoulders. Before I can get away he just throws me down onto the floor just in front of the gate.
I am so scared that even my screams for help come out as whimpers.
My attacker looks around and shouts something across the road at another man who must have seen me being attacked.

Someone must have heard him shout?

Perhaps this witness can help me?!

Oh no, he has just run away, coward!


The man who attacked me then looks at me. He looks like he wants to kill me.

But he just walks off.

It's fortunate he wasn't Jack the Ripper and just some random street thug.

Okay...what do I do now?

I think I will stay here for a while.

I won't go into the club
I won't go home
And there's no point walking out of this yard because that man who attacked me might still be lingering around the corner.
Not by the Board School though because I am sure there was another couple there earlier.

Why didn't they come to my assistance?

Surely when I screamed a few times, I wasn't that quiet?

Oh look, there's a man with a Pipe.

Nope, he's just walked off too.

I wonder if he and that broad shouldered man were friends?
It doesn't matter, I am just going to stay here and gather my thoughts.
But quietly of course; I don't want to disturb anyone sitting downstairs in that building. Not that they would hear me anyway.

Oh I do wish that man who had kissed me outside the bricklayers arms was still here. I thought the date was going quite well. I got dressed up and everything.

Nevermind

I am just going to stay and wait. No point in walking out from this yard. One of the neighbours might see me. That woman at number 36 especially.

It must be 12.55am now.

Oh, wait, there's a man with a black bag!...

Hello?!

Hello?!

How rude, he just walked hurriedly past me and didn't even think to give us a hand to stand up.

Don't tell me he didn't hear me either!

Do I really speak that quietly?!

Whatever.


Right, time to go home.

Oh, hold on, who's this coming now?

Hi, I'm Lizzie, and you are?

Quiet type are we? Where did you come from? I never even heard you coming. Not like that Policeman who was tramping about earlier. No doubt he will be walking back past here on his beat in a few minutes.

What's that? You like my scarf?

Ok, you can have a feel of my scarf if you like.

Kissing?

Yes, I do. The man I was with earlier was a bit full on though. His breath was awful. Hold on, let me just freshen me breath...


.........



If Schwartz witnessed Bs Man assaulting Stride at 12.45am...and he WASN'T her killer, then not only do we need to move Mortimer out the equation entirely, delay Brown, believe the other couple and Mrs Diemschitz were hard of hearing...we also have to explain Stride's CHOICES AFTER she was assaulted.


Believing Schwartz is one thing, but accepting BS man attacked her and didn't finish her off is a step beyond reasoning.

If BS Man attacked her, then he subsequently cut her throat after Schwattz ran off.

And if Bs Man was her killer...he certainly wasn't the Ripper.

And if Stride wasn't a Ripper victim...

All feels a bit wrong to me... doesn't feel quite right.

But at least Schwartz gave us BS Man and let off that innocent man with the parcel.