Broad Shoulders, Elizabeth's Killer ?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Unsubstantiated newspaper reports should be treated with caution.

Official reports regarding Schwartz witness eye accounts should always be treated ahead of such articles as the Stars report .

The Official stance at the time was that Schwartz's version of events were believed by the police at the time who were in charge of the ripper investigation .

You love your authority figures, so what about Coroner Baxter? What was his stance?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What I'm assuming is that times given by witnesses are estimates and might be off by a few minutes. I think that to do otherwise is unrealistic. It's especially unrealistic if the only way that it works for all given times to be exactly right is if we baselessly assume that one of the witnesses is lying. Someone that believes that we need to have a reason to assume a witness is lying, but takes the given times to be estimates, is following the witness testimony much more closely than someone who believes that either all times given by witnesses are exactly right or at least one of the witnesses is lying.

I think it fair that I also get to move witnesses around.

I will start by moving Eagle's return to the club from 12:40 to 12:45. At that time, Stride had not yet moved to the gateway, and Schwartz was still a few minutes up Commercial Rd. He will not reach the gateway until almost 12:50.

Next, I will move Charles Letchford's sister back in time, so that she is on her doorstep by 12:48. That's only a couple of minutes.

Is everyone okay with this, so far?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hard to believe that Schwartz wouldn't have noticed that her throat had been cut.

c.d.

I think Abby's theory is that Stride had her throat cut on the footway, and then tried to walk to the side door to get help.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

No one witnessed Stride being killed, should we therefore conclude she wasn't murdered, but committed suicide? Not everything is observed and not every observer talks to the police.

Stride was killed in the dark. The chase, or whatever and if it was, was in poor light but not darkness. It not being observed on streets that were not deserted is a curiosity. The police spoke to a great many people. It seems that belief in Schwartz requires a list of supporting assumptions to be made and accepted.

And the Schwartz-Pipeman chase might have been observed.

"In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the [two latter?] [?] up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Complaint is also made [?] [?] [?] there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be [?] from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation. There is, notwithstanding the number who have visited the scene, a complete absence of excitement, although naturally [?] fresh addition to the already formidable list of mysterious murders forms the general subject of conversation." - 1 October 1888 Echo.

This might show showing that Pipean thought Broadshouldered Man had accused Schwartz of being a murderer by calling him 'Lipski". Schwartz fleeing could have been interpreted as a sign of guilt by Pipeman, and thus he pursued.

The Echo report has been under discussion for the last few days by a few of us (not including Herlock, who wrote it off as "plot-fodder").

According to Schwartz, he had left the scene before the murder. For the BS Man to have accused Schwartz of murder, which was understood by Pipeman, could only make sense if Schwartz's claim to have left the scene prior, was false.

The next thing to think about is how this alternate story made its way to Wess, but apparently not the police.

[FISHY1118]

Unsubstantiated newspaper reports should be treated with caution.

Official reports regarding Schwartz witness eye accounts should always be treated ahead of such articles as the Stars report .

The Official stance at the time was that Schwartz's version of events were believed by the police at the time who were in charge of the ripper investigation .