Foreigners

[Observer]

"Guv'nor" could be, and still is, used in that manner, Obs - in fact, "guv'nor" is far more likely to be used between equals, with "sir" the preferred appellation for people of (real or apparent) superiority.

Hi Sam

Of course if the man in question was indeed yon mad pork butcher, then you would address him as guv'nor. The thing is, if you found yourself standing in front of him in his butcher shop you wouldn't want to end up with load of old gristle ! Joking aside I have used and been the recipient of the term.
Regards

Observer

[curious4]

Between equals

"Guv'nor" could be, and still is, used in that manner, Obs - in fact, "guv'nor" is far more likely to be used between equals, with "sir" the preferred appellation for people of (real or apparent) superiority.

Hello Sam Flynn,

Can't remember ever having heard the expression being used between equals when I was a child or even later. Taxi drivers, for example would address each other as "mate". Don't know about now, as I haven't lived in England for many years.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Guv'nor

Hi C4

I have no problem with the suggestion that the mysterious foreigner need not have been Jewish. What is unacceptable is the suggestion that it was a particular person, that is Isenschmidt, or any other individual for that matter.

Whoever the individual was, I'd agree, he was person of interest.

Guv'nor wasn't necessarily a term used to address a superior, I believe it could be used between equals.

Regards

Observer

Hello Observer,

Never suggested that the man was Swiss - that was Lynn's input. Not heard the expression being used among equals, though.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

In my natural state

Oh Gwyneth

from an online dictionary:-



Now you've really got me going...for what it's worth I wouldn't throw coins at you either!

All the best

Dave

Hello Dave,

It was meant in sense 1b. Were I in my completely natural state you would probably throw coins, or anything handy!

Best wishes,
Gwyneth

[Sam Flynn]

Guv'nor wasn't necessarily a term used to address a superior, I believe it could be used between equals.

"Guv'nor" could be, and still is, used in that manner, Obs - in fact, "guv'nor" is far more likely to be used between equals, with "sir" the preferred appellation for people of (real or apparent) superiority.

[Observer]

Hello Observer,

Point(s) being:

(1) Foreigner may not necessarily mean Jewish, as is widely claimed on the boards and in some JTR literature.

(2) Does calling him guv'nor point to him being of a higher class, slummer perhaps? If so, what was he doing there? Not waiting for the market - unlikely anyway.

Best wishes,
C4

Hi C4

I have no problem with the suggestion that the mysterious foreigner need not have been Jewish. What is unacceptable is the suggestion that it was a particular person, that is Isenschmidt, or any other individual for that matter.

Whoever the individual was, I'd agree, he was person of interest.

Guv'nor wasn't necessarily a term used to address a superior, I believe it could be used between equals.

Regards

Observer

[lynn cates]

shabby genteel

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

So, shabby genteel it is.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

1a ?

Oh Gwyneth

from an online dictionary:-

au na·tu·rel ( nch-rl, ō nä-tü-rl)
adj.
1.a. Nude.
b. In a natural state: an au naturel hairstyle.
2. Cooked simply.

[French : au, in the + naturel, natural (state).]

Now you've really got me going...for what it's worth I wouldn't throw coins at you either!

All the best

Dave

[curious]

Hello Guv, sorry, Lynn,

Jack London believed it was due to his clothing, and people today are often judged thusly - have personal experience of the difference between going out au naturell versus all done up (although I like to think my natural good breeding shows through - no-one has ever thrown a coin at me).

So even a dressed down "posh" slummer might call forth a "guv'nor" from the natives.

Best wishes,
C4/Gwynetj

Now these are interesting obsevations . . .
thanks,

curious

[curious4]

Guv

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

Agreed about the Swiss. Of course, the short pants and yodeling might be a give away. (heh-heh)

Guv'nor might just be a friendly term or it might indicate someone who was dressed a bit. But doubtful it was beyond shabby genteel.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Guv, sorry, Lynn,

Jack London believed it was due to his clothing, and people today are often judged thusly - have personal experience of the difference between going out au naturelle versus all done up (although I like to think my natural good breeding shows through - no-one has ever thrown a coin at me).

So even a dressed down "posh" slummer might call forth a "guv'nor" from the natives.

Best wishes,
C4/Gwyneth

[lynn cates]

Guv'nor

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

Agreed about the Swiss. Of course, the short pants and yodeling might be a give away. (heh-heh)

Guv'nor might just be a friendly term or it might indicate someone who was dressed a bit. But doubtful it was beyond shabby genteel.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Point being

Why not a janitor from Japan ?
A freeloader from France ?
A Toreador from Turkestan ?

What's your point ? You deal in fact. How will we ever know who the strange foreigner sighted on the steps of 29 Hanbury Street was ? It's futile attempting to identify this man.

Hello Observer,

Point(s) being:

(1) Foreigner may not necessarily mean Jewish, as is widely claimed on the boards and in some JTR literature.

(2) Does calling him guv'nor point to him being of a higher class, slummer perhaps? If so, what was he doing there? Not waiting for the market - unlikely anyway.

Best wishes,
C4

[Observer]

But why Jewish? Why not a Swiss chap with an accent?

Why not a janitor from Japan ?
A freeloader from France ?
A Toreador from Turkestan ?

What's your point ? You deal in fact. How will we ever know who the strange foreigner sighted on the steps of 29 Hanbury Street was ? It's futile attempting to identify this man.

[curious4]

Foreign?

Hello Lynn,

My point exactly, although identifying someone as Swiss on sight would be quite a feat. What is interesting about the Hanbury street man is that (I think it was) John Richardson was said to have addressed him as "guv'nor", something Jack London mentions, saying that as soon as he put on his "poor" clothes he was no longer so addressed.

My impression is that "foreigner" was used in the sense of "not from round 'ere!" There were, after all, many nationalities represented in the east end at the time, Swedes, French, Italian, Chinese, Dutch, Spanish etc, as well as asians (called Lascars I believe) and a sizable black population, even though the Jewish immigrants were the largest group of immigrants at the time.

So, feeling rather like the elephant's child, I keep on asking.

Best wishes,
Gwyneth/C4

[lynn cates]

Swiss

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks for starting this thread.

"What prompted the question was the account of the strange man on the stairs in Hanbury street. He was referred to as "a foreigner" and we are told that he must therefore have been Jewish."

But why Jewish? Why not a Swiss chap with an accent?

Cheers.
LC