Foreigners

[Bridewell]

What is interesting about the Hanbury street man is that (I think it was) John Richardson was said to have addressed him as "guv'nor", something Jack London mentions, saying that as soon as he put on his "poor" clothes he was no longer so addressed.

Good point, well made. Appearances can be deceptive and perception is (almost) everything. If you dressed like a toff, you'd be treated like a toff.

[GUT]

G'Day Fleetwood Mac

Aussies stand out!!!!!

Not by being drunken yobs in shorts, slouch hats and thongs I should hope.

[Fleetwood Mac]

G'Day all

Just my two cents worth.

But I've always presumed the foreign had more to do with clothing, hat, hairstyle etc and there, especially with C19 Jews, you could see a difference.

GUT, I would say that you can spot an Englishman a mile off by the way we dress, and there are certain English characteristics to dressing that are unique to us.

But, I think this thread has been taken down a dead end by certain posters. No one was claiming that 'Jews' stand out and somehow we are the blonde haired, blue eyed Aryans and Jews are all dark and 'swarthy'.

It was more a comment on Eastern Europeans and their features as opposed to ours, and anyone who can't see that must be blind.

Is anyone seriously suggesting that you can't differentiate between a Frenchman and an Englishman through 10 seconds of seeing how they dress, walk down the street, their features, how they communicate etc?

Foreigners really do stand out in England, including Aussies and Americans.

[Errata]

Whether or not the stereotype is actually true, most people, then and now, take it to be true, so that when a witness says "He looked like a Jew", we can be pretty sure that he's describing a dark-haired man with dark eyes and a prominent nose. The witness statements should be understood in the light of a physical description, I think, rather than as assertions about religion or nationality. The witnesses, after all, are saying "he looked like ...", not "he was ...".

You are absolutely right. My point is that no stereotypical appearance confines itself to a single group. With the sole exception of the Maori. The description anyone gives of a "typical" Jew could apply to about five other ethnic groups. So since "looks Jewish" doesn't mean "is Jewish", a person has to ditch the stereotype and go by the alluded to features. And the problem with taking the stereotype, or even believing it is that it becomes entirely possible that the police looked ONLY for someone who was Jewish. Not someone who might be of some entirely different ethnicity who shares those features.

[GUT]

G'Day all

Just my two cents worth.

But I've always presumed the foreign had more to do with clothing, hat, hairstyle etc and there, especially with C19 Jews, you could see a difference.

[Ginger]

Whether or not the stereotype is actually true, most people, then and now, take it to be true, so that when a witness says "He looked like a Jew", we can be pretty sure that he's describing a dark-haired man with dark eyes and a prominent nose. The witness statements should be understood in the light of a physical description, I think, rather than as assertions about religion or nationality. The witnesses, after all, are saying "he looked like ...", not "he was ...".

The real question is, in that time and place, when someone said "he looked like a foreigner", did they mean the same thing as someone saying "he looked like a Jew", or is there some shade of meaning that's been lost?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Jon

I agree with FM, I can spot an Eastern European a mile off too. Primarily, by features and then by clothes. The same would have applied to Victorians.

A few years ago I might've agreed with you. However, Bognor has since had a huge influx of Poles and Eastern Europeans, totally disproportionate to it's size. Slavic languages seem to prevail in my local supermarket...and to be honest, in most cases I really can't tell until they open their mouths...not that I even waste time wondering mostly...folk are folk...

All the best

Dave

[Fleetwood Mac]

There isn't. My father is an Eastern European Jew and yes, looks like the stereotype. His mother was also an Eastern European Jew, blond, looked exactly like the casually racist Polish girl on the "it's a small world" ride at disneyworld.

Errata, you're turning this into a blue eyes, blonde hair issue. I wasn't talking about that. A lot of Poles have blue eyes. I was talking about features and head shape, and Eastern Europeans stand out a mile in this country - whether Jewish or otherwise.

[Errata]

There is.
I agree with FM, I can spot an Eastern European a mile off too. Primarily, by features and then by clothes. The same would have applied to Victorians.

One of these days we're going to play a game of "Name that Phenotype" and you guys are going to be amazed.

[Jon Guy]

There isn't.
Eastern Europeans don't have a look.

There is.
I agree with FM, I can spot an Eastern European a mile off too. Primarily, by features and then by clothes. The same would have applied to Victorians.

[Errata]

This wouldn't have been the case at all.

Mainly because many Jews were Eastern European and there is a massive difference between Eastern European features and English features.

In my opinion you can spot an Englishman a mile off, just as you can a Frenchman or a Spaniard or an Italian; and just as easily an Eastern European.

There isn't. My father is an Eastern European Jew and yes, looks like the stereotype. His mother was also an Eastern European Jew, blond, looked exactly like the casually racist Polish girl on the "it's a small world" ride at disneyworld. Her sister had red hair, and was what can best be described as greyhound like. Thin, nervous, whippy. His dad was Austrian, and looked like a member of Hitler Youth except he had the nose. His uncle cousin and brother all lived in Whitechapel at the time of the murders, and all had blonde hair, green eyes and were tall and lean. Librarian types.

Eastern Europeans don't have a look. Russia is such a mix of cultures that they never solidified into a phenotype. You have Eastern, Gypsy, German, Northern Russians look like a different species from southern Russians. It's like saying Americans all look one way. We're too big to all look one way.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Jews look like Englishmen for the most part.

This wouldn't have been the case at all.

Mainly because many Jews were Eastern European and there is a massive difference between Eastern European features and English features.

In my opinion you can spot an Englishman a mile off, just as you can a Frenchman or a Spaniard or an Italian; and just as easily an Eastern European.

[curious4]

Outsider

Hello all,

There are two definitions of the word foreign. The first is "someone from a different country", but the second is "not from the community, outsider." There were many "immigrants" to London at this time from the British countryside, probably some with weird and wonderful dialects hard to understand for the Londoners. I remember a Cornishwoman, living in the village where I grew up, with a very broad Cornish accent, as well as cousins from the Newcastle area who were (as children) completely incomprehensible to me in Kent. Not to mention the Welsh, who often didn't speak much english!

So perhaps a "foreigner" could be british.

Best wishes,
C4

[Errata]

Interesting.

So would your guess be that Hutchinson was just being casually anti semitic, in the way that many people even today are?

Thinking that Jews look a certain way is not anti semitic. It's ignorant, but there's no malice. If all the Jews you know look a certain way, it's not unreasonable to think that all Jews look that certain way. Mistaken, but not unreasonable.

And an accent is consistent with foreign, not necessarily Jewish. Quite a bit of the Jewish population of London was on it's third or fourth generation of Londoners. They would have no accent. Foreign Jews would have an accent, but so would foreign Christians or atheists. So he hears an accent and sees a hooked nose and dark hair. Is he sophisticated enough to pick out a Russian orthodox from a Russian Jew? Or a Saudi Muslim from a Polish Jew?

[Wickerman]

Hutchinson did hear the man talk, is it reasonable to assume he also detected an accent consistent with what he hears from the many Jews in the area?

This, coupled with his attire, might persuade anyone.