Jack's Escape Route?

[BooksbyBJThompson]

I've posted these sections before:

The Derby Daily Telegraph (Oct. 1st): "indeed one of the policemen who saw the body (Eddowes) in the mortuary expressed his confident opinion that he had seen the woman walking several times in the neighborhood of Aldgate-High Street."[and,] "The police theory is that the man and woman, who had met in Aldgate, watched the policeman (Watkins) pass round the square, and they then entered it for an immoral purpose."

A similar story written on October 2, 1888 by a London correspondent for The New York Times: "The only trace considered of any value is the story of a watchboy who saw a man and a woman leave Aldgate station, going towards Mitre-square. The man returned shortly afterward alone. The police have a good description of him.”

Here's another possibility: Watkins comes into Mitre Square at 1:30 and walks as far as the edge of the buildings at the entry and quickly flashes his light around, then walks back out. The Ripper, being busy with Eddowes in the corner, waits until Watkins turns back. Seven minutes later Watkins lets the Ripper walk past him in St. James Place. Seven minutes was the city police estimate of the time that had elapsed between Watkins leaving the Square to his encounter with the man leaving St. James Passage in the Orange Market.

I have nothing to back up this belief, but the same was said about the Stride murder -- murderer at scene, waiting to escape -- my gut says no to both. It's my belief Jack was gone already.

[BooksbyBJThompson]

I was always of the opinion that Eddowes path into Mitre square was via Mitre street .

What makes you think that, if you don't mind me asking?

[Varqm]

I've posted these sections before:

The Derby Daily Telegraph (Oct. 1st): "indeed one of the policemen who saw the body (Eddowes) in the mortuary expressed his confident opinion that he had seen the woman walking several times in the neighborhood of Aldgate-High Street."[and,] "The police theory is that the man and woman, who had met in Aldgate, watched the policeman (Watkins) pass round the square, and they then entered it for an immoral purpose."

A similar story written on October 2, 1888 by a London correspondent for The New York Times: "The only trace considered of any value is the story of a watchboy who saw a man and a woman leave Aldgate station, going towards Mitre-square. The man returned shortly afterward alone. The police have a good description of him.”

Here's another possibility: Watkins comes into Mitre Square at 1:30 and walks as far as the edge of the buildings at the entry and quickly flashes his light around, then walks back out. The Ripper, being busy with Eddowes in the corner, waits until Watkins turns back. Seven minutes later Watkins lets the Ripper walk past him in St. James Place. Seven minutes was the city police estimate of the time that had elapsed between Watkins leaving the Square to his encounter with the man leaving St. James Passage in the Orange Market.

The Derby article is most likely what happened,it was not luck.
The second article,Eddowes was released at 1 am,the trains I don't think operate at that time,but I do not have the Bradshaw guide right now.Maybe they just passed it.Maybe another couple.

Watkins encountered a man in the Orange Market,first time I read.Where is this written?

[Varqm]

Well, I assume he didn't literally vanish into then air, so which bit am I to 'forget'?

He left, and all I was suggesting was that - in the absence of an alarm - there was no need for anyone to pay any undue attention to him.

I'm just saying you're hypothetical scenario did not happen because there is no report of anybody walking from or around Mitre Square after Lawende trio's sighting.

[Scott Nelson]

I've posted these sections before:

The Derby Daily Telegraph (Oct. 1st): "indeed one of the policemen who saw the body (Eddowes) in the mortuary expressed his confident opinion that he had seen the woman walking several times in the neighborhood of Aldgate-High Street."[and,] "The police theory is that the man and woman, who had met in Aldgate, watched the policeman (Watkins) pass round the square, and they then entered it for an immoral purpose."

A similar story written on October 2, 1888 by a London correspondent for The New York Times: "The only trace considered of any value is the story of a watchboy who saw a man and a woman leave Aldgate station, going towards Mitre-square. The man returned shortly afterward alone. The police have a good description of him.”

Here's another possibility: Watkins comes into Mitre Square at 1:30 and walks as far as the edge of the buildings at the entry and quickly flashes his light around, then walks back out. The Ripper, being busy with Eddowes in the corner, waits until Watkins turns back. Seven minutes later Watkins lets the Ripper walk past him in St. James Place. Seven minutes was the city police estimate of the time that had elapsed between Watkins leaving the Square to his encounter with the man leaving St. James Passage in the Orange Market.

[Iconoclast]

You can forget that.There is no report of any man seen from/around Mitre square after Lawende's/co's sighting.Lawende described JTR's clothes.

Well, I assume he didn't literally vanish into then air, so which bit am I to 'forget'?

He left, and all I was suggesting was that - in the absence of an alarm - there was no need for anyone to pay any undue attention to him.

[Varqm]

First and foremost, many thanks for the links to the video which was an excellent visualisation of the crime scene and estimation of the foot fall during those critical minutes.

I am surprised that anyone thinks Jack would be particularly concerned which way he exited Mitre Square - he clearly did so before anyone was in 'alarm' mode so no police whistles, no shouts, no running frantically around looking for the perpetrator. Assuming - as Mary Jane Kelly's death would suggest - Jack was actually a reasonably well-dressed person, he would not be stopped whichever way he went and whomever he passed along the way. If he had done enough to hide Eddowes' blood on him (by putting a long coat back on again, for example), he could have strolled back along Church Passage with PC Harvey if necessary and not been challenged. Why would he be challenged? A smartly-dressed, well-spoken sort of fellow in an age of significant social 'bracketing' and in the absence of any reason to be suspicious (after all, Jack had already struck 45 minutes earlier well away from Mitre Square), as long as no blood was visible (his hands would have been in his coat pocket along with Eddies' apron offcut) he could have brazened it out. Even if Watkins then blew his whistle behind them, it is not guaranteed that Harvey would have spontaneously detained the polite chap strolling along with him.

Now, to be clear, I'm not advocating that this happened. I am simply pointing-out that - in the absence of alarm signals and with a crime scene already live elsewhere - if Jack was well enough dressed and well enough spoken, he could have walked out of Mitre Square in any direction safe in the knowledge that his presence there would not be questioned. Once he was out, he was free to walk in any direction with a very low chance of anyone stopping him. Not in 2022, sure, but almost certainly in the class-ridden society of 1888 where Jack was a raving, slavering monster with bulging eyes and a dysfunctional appearance. Allegedly.

Ike

You can forget that.There is no report of any man seen from/around Mitre square after Lawende's/co's sighting.Lawende described JTR's clothes.

[FISHY1118]

That's a silly statement, and coming from the authorship of your book that I very much enjoyed, very disappointing.
Confidence would have come with butchering. I'm not saying Jack was a butcher, but he's been exposed to using a knife on a corpse.
A simple anatomy book would get him the rest of the way. He's not looking to do no harm or treat this body well. He's looking to knife it open and take what he wants at that moment. To say that Jack had medical knowledge is a bridge too far.

Although i do not subscribe to Trevors theory , i will say this much. I dont see why its such a problem for some that medical knowledge was used in the removal of the organs in Eddowes case . After all, we have this from a doctor who was there at the time

[Coroner]Would you consider that the person who inflicted the wounds possessed anatomical skill? -Dr. Frederick Gordon Brown ''He must have had a good deal of knowledge as to the position of the abdominal organs, and the way to remove them.Would the removal of the kidney, for example, require special knowledge? - It would require a good deal of knowledge as to its position, because it is apt to be overlooked, being covered by a membrane.

Are we who sit here 134 years later really able to say he was dead wrong ?. Might not a medical person also have removed in haste the organs the same way a butcher would /could have. ? Could he have been less precise in his technique enough to remove the organs in such a way that made it look like someone of less skill without even realizing he had ?. Lots of diffent ways of looking at the murder and removal of kate Eddowes organs than meets the eye .IMO

I wouldnt be burning down the bridge just yet .

[Iconoclast]

Hi George,

In the simulation, from the time they reach the crime scene until the time JtR flees works out to about 6 minutes. If we go with Levey's estimate of when the rain stopped, at 1:33 rather than 1:35, then there would be about 8 minutes.

And I can see the reasoning for following Harvey, particularly if he froze and had to wait it out. It's whether or not JtR followed the same line of thought that is the question!

- Jeff

First and foremost, many thanks for the links to the video which was an excellent visualisation of the crime scene and estimation of the foot fall during those critical minutes.

I am surprised that anyone thinks Jack would be particularly concerned which way he exited Mitre Square - he clearly did so before anyone was in 'alarm' mode so no police whistles, no shouts, no running frantically around looking for the perpetrator. Assuming - as Mary Jane Kelly's death would suggest - Jack was actually a reasonably well-dressed person, he would not be stopped whichever way he went and whomever he passed along the way. If he had done enough to hide Eddowes' blood on him (by putting a long coat back on again, for example), he could have strolled back along Church Passage with PC Harvey if necessary and not been challenged. Why would he be challenged? A smartly-dressed, well-spoken sort of fellow in an age of significant social 'bracketing' and in the absence of any reason to be suspicious (after all, Jack had already struck 45 minutes earlier well away from Mitre Square), as long as no blood was visible (his hands would have been in his coat pocket along with Eddies' apron offcut) he could have brazened it out. Even if Watkins then blew his whistle behind them, it is not guaranteed that Harvey would have spontaneously detained the polite chap strolling along with him.

Now, to be clear, I'm not advocating that this happened. I am simply pointing-out that - in the absence of alarm signals and with a crime scene already live elsewhere - if Jack was well enough dressed and well enough spoken, he could have walked out of Mitre Square in any direction safe in the knowledge that his presence there would not be questioned. Once he was out, he was free to walk in any direction with a very low chance of anyone stopping him. Not in 2022, sure, but almost certainly in the class-ridden society of 1888 where Jack was a raving, slavering monster with bulging eyes and a dysfunctional appearance. Allegedly.

Ike

[FISHY1118]

Not my preferred theory

[DJA]

Via number 6

[FISHY1118]

The City Police theory is that the Ripper and Eddowes waited in Aldgate for Watkins to leave Mitre Square at around 1:30am, then they entered along Mitre Street as Watkins had his back to them.

I was always of the opinion that Eddowes path into Mitre square was via Mitre street .

[GBinOz]

The City Police theory is that the Ripper and Eddowes waited in Aldgate for Watkins to leave Mitre Square at around 1:30am, then they entered along Mitre Street as Watkins had his back to them.

Hi Scott,

Are you saying that they completely discounted the Church Passage/Lawende couple? Can you point us to a reference please?

Cheers, George

[BooksbyBJThompson]

The City Police theory is that the Ripper and Eddowes waited in Aldgate for Watkins to leave Mitre Square at around 1:30am, then they entered along Mitre Street as Watkins had his back to them.

Quite plausible, yes.

[BooksbyBJThompson]

I keep hearing researchers keep mentioning this butcher theory, which I do not subscribe to, and I have to ask would a butcher back then have had an expert knowledge of the female anatomy to first be able to locate these organs in the dark, and then be able to remove them with some degree of anatomical knowldege this answer has to be a definite no. if that had have been the case we would see butchers performing hysterctomies in hospitals today

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

That's a silly statement, and coming from the authorship of your book that I very much enjoyed, very disappointing.
Confidence would have come with butchering. I'm not saying Jack was a butcher, but he's been exposed to using a knife on a corpse.
A simple anatomy book would get him the rest of the way. He's not looking to do no harm or treat this body well. He's looking to knife it open and take what he wants at that moment. To say that Jack had medical knowledge is a bridge too far.