Jack's Escape Route?

[Iconoclast]

No. I ment this , 1.35am when Lawende said they passed the couple , allowing for the senario they left right after that , 2 mins to get into kill position 1.37am ...

That's exactly what I suggested you had possibly meant.

... 1.45am when the body is discovered = 8 mins for mutlilation organ removal .

Assuming your timings, but there's a huge amount of dubiety in your scenario already.

My thoery is if they entred the square as soon as Harvey left till he returned then there is possible 12/14 mins to complete the deed .

It certainly makes sense for them to wait until PC Harvey had walked back out of Church Passage (assuming he even went down it). I'm sure Jeff's video would tell us more or less what time that would have been. Either way, I wouldn't get too hung up on Lawende's 1.35am (if it was he who cited it, I don't recall) as I can't imagine clocks and watches were on radio signals back then.

Hold on, I'm getting confused - weren't you arguing that they entered via Mitre Street and therefore knew nothing of the couple, Lawende, or PC Harvey?

So, you're saying entering via Mitre Street gives Jack 12-14 minutes. Entering via Church Passage gives him 8 minutes? (I can be very slow in the mornings.)

I think your first premise is probably reasonable (given PC Watkins' beat), but I don't think we can rule out:

1) Entry via Church Passage;
2) Jack having a great deal more than 8 minutes as a result; and
3) Eight minutes potentially being sufficient time to do what he did.

Ike

[FISHY1118]

And Lawende testified (as I recall) that the woman he saw talking to the guy with the sailor cap and neckerchief was wearing similar clothes to Eddowes which points firmly towards the two of them being Eddowes and Jack, and that they had entered Mitre Square via Church Passage. Whether it was 1.30am or 1.35am when he had observed them is utterly moot, and - as Trevor points out - that doesn't mean they then immediately left to go into the square.

Sorry but similar clothes proves nothing , again just as we dont know when they moved off from that spot , we dont know that they didnt move immediately either .As i said subjective evidence interpretation at play.

[FISHY1118]

What you really are referring to, Fishy, is the fact that we know almost nothing for certain about the Jack the Ripper murders!

It's why it continues to make the study of the case so interesting and yet so damned frustrating ...

What we do know however allowes for any number of different conclusions as to how the murders were committed ,and that one theory doesnt necessarily prove another wrong .

[FISHY1118]

Fishy,

I must have got up too early. Surely you aren't suggesting it would take 6-7 minutes to walk down Church Passage (as was)?

I walked it a few years ago in less than a minute, I'd say.

Or were you implying that they entered Mitre Square at 1.30am not the mooted 1.35am, and therefore added 5 minutes to the time you thought it would take to walk down Church Passage and got 2 minutes in order to get your 7 minutes?

Ike

No. I ment this , 1.35am when Lawende said they passed the couple , allowing for the senario they left right after that , 2 mins to get into kill position 1.37am ,1.45am when the body is discovered = 8 mins for mutlilation organ removal . My thoery is if they entred the square as soon as Harvey left till he returned then there is possible 12/14 mins to complete the deed .

[Iconoclast]

The evidence is in the Fact there was no positive id that it ''Was'' indeed Eddowes that was the female standing next the the man . So we also have to except that Eddowes could have entered the square from another direction .i.e Mitre street , thus giving enough time for all the mutilations and organ removal .The evidence works both ways . Where is the evidence that says they stood on that spot for 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 mins before moving through the passage ? So again they could have moved on right away, we dont know that answer in both senarios do we ? So both could be right or wrong

What you really are referring to, Fishy, is the fact that we know almost nothing for certain about the Jack the Ripper murders!

It's why it continues to make the study of the case so interesting and yet so damned frustrating ...

[Iconoclast]

Well in the absence of any evidence to prove the contrary we have to accept they were the couple seen standing talking, and I have to remind one and all that if they were the killer and Eddowes there is no evidence to show what time they left the spot where they were seen standing talking, so it cannot be firmly established just how long the killer had with Eddowes. The longer they stood talking before moving off into the square, the less time for the killer to do all that he is alleged to have done

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

And Lawende testified (as I recall) that the woman he saw talking to the guy with the sailor cap and neckerchief was wearing similar clothes to Eddowes which points firmly towards the two of them being Eddowes and Jack, and that they had entered Mitre Square via Church Passage. Whether it was 1.30am or 1.35am when he had observed them is utterly moot, and - as Trevor points out - that doesn't mean they then immediately left to go into the square.

[FISHY1118]

Well in the absence of any evidence to prove the contrary we have to accept they were the couple seen standing talking, and I have to remind one and all that if they were the killer and Eddowes there is no evidence to show what time they left the spot where they were seen standing talking, so it cannot be firmly established just how long the killer had with Eddowes. The longer they stood talking before moving off into the square, the less time for the killer to do all that he is alleged to have done

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

The evidence is in the Fact there was no positive id that it ''Was'' indeed Eddowes that was the female standing next the the man . So we also have to except that Eddowes could have entered the square from another direction .i.e Mitre street , thus giving enough time for all the mutilations and organ removal .The evidence works both ways . Where is the evidence that says they stood on that spot for 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 mins before moving through the passage ? So again they could have moved on right away, we dont know that answer in both senarios do we ? So both could be right or wrong

[Iconoclast]

I dont believe the couple Lawende and co saw at 1.30/5 were Jack the Ripper and Eddowes.

If indeed they entred via Mitre st ,it would give Jack the 13/15 mins of murder time and organ removal before p.c Harvey came back into the square. This is a more reasonable timeframe, rather than the two of them entering via the passageway leading into the square allowing only say 7/8 mins.

Fishy,

I must have got up too early. Surely you aren't suggesting it would take 6-7 minutes to walk down Church Passage (as was)?

I walked it a few years ago in less than a minute, I'd say.

Or were you implying that they entered Mitre Square at 1.30am not the mooted 1.35am, and therefore added 5 minutes to the time you thought it would take to walk down Church Passage and got 2 minutes in order to get your 7 minutes?

Ike

[Iconoclast]

I'm just saying you're hypothetical scenario did not happen because there is no report of anybody walking from or around Mitre Square after Lawende trio's sighting.

What is the point you are seeking to make here? You sound as though you are saying:

1) Jack did not walk out of Mitre Square with PC Harvey. We don't know that for certain, but I think we'd all agree he did not walk out of Mitre Square with PC Harvey (or indeed with anyone else). My 'hypothetical' is, of course, on the surface contradicted by the fact that PC Harvey did not report strolling out of the square with the guy who was almost certainly the killer. We can't say this definitely didn't happen, of course, because it is unlikely that a policeman would have admitted to it if they had strolled away from the crime scene with the madman himself, however reasonable that may have been at the time.

2) Jack did not leave Mitre Square at all because no-one reported seeing anyone leave Mitre Square. This alternative conclusion would be bizarre, so I'll assume you were meaning 1), above?

Just to iterate, I was not suggesting for a moment that Jack the Ripper did stroll along Church Passage with PC Harvey. It was a mere whimsy on my part and not one I thought for a moment anyone would pursue, and certainly not pursue twice. It was a whimsy. We all know it didn't happen, Get over it. Move on. Let it go.

[Trevor Marriott]

I dont believe the couple Lawende and co saw at 1.30/5 were Jack the Ripper and Eddowes.

If indeed they entred via Mitre st ,it would give Jack the 13/15 mins of murder time and organ removal before p.c Harvey came back into the square. This is a more reasonable timeframe, rather than the two of them entering via the passageway leading into the square allowing only say 7/8 mins.

Well in the absence of any evidence to prove the contrary we have to accept they were the couple seen standing talking, and I have to remind one and all that if they were the killer and Eddowes there is no evidence to show what time they left the spot where they were seen standing talking, so it cannot be firmly established just how long the killer had with Eddowes. The longer they stood talking before moving off into the square, the less time for the killer to do all that he is alleged to have done

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FISHY1118]

What makes you think that, if you don't mind me asking?

I dont believe the couple Lawende and co saw at 1.30/5 were Jack the Ripper and Eddowes.

If indeed they entred via Mitre st ,it would give Jack the 13/15 mins of murder time and organ removal before p.c Harvey came back into the square. This is a more reasonable timeframe, rather than the two of them entering via the passageway leading into the square allowing only say 7/8 mins.

[jerryd]

The Derby article is most likely what happened,it was not luck.
The second article,Eddowes was released at 1 am,the trains I don't think operate at that time,but I do not have the Bradshaw guide right now.Maybe they just passed it.Maybe another couple.

Watkins encountered a man in the Orange Market,first time I read.Where is this written?

Hi Varqm.

From the retirement of PC Langdon of the City Police. The article posted by Howard is here. * City PC E.T. Langdon Retires ( With Article) - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

"It was night and the policeman passed through the square once, everything then being apparently alright. He walked on, coming to a court leading out of a street out of Mitre Square. Halfway up the court he stood sideways to allow a man to pass him. The man came from the direction of the square."

[FISHY1118]

It's more to the point of behavior than career. Of course, any person in any career could become a serial killer, but with this pattern of attack, I'm sensing severe mental deteroration, which I think would have been well noticed by medical colleagues. Jack isn't of that class. He is able to show abberant behavior/thought patterns in a class not bothered by said. Whether it be from contracting syphilis or some other mental disease, Jack has to be able to not be noticed by others during his off kill times. The medical community wouldn't be blithe to Jack.

Interesting deduction , and of course your opinion is duely noted , but I'll stand by my point of view based on the evidence at hand .Given at the time. .

[Wickerman]

The Derby article is most likely what happened,it was not luck.
The second article,Eddowes was released at 1 am,the trains I don't think operate at that time,but I do not have the Bradshaw guide right now.Maybe they just passed it.Maybe another couple.

Watkins encountered a man in the Orange Market,first time I read.Where is this written?

You need to look up "Blenkingsop".

A Couple Asked After.

James Blenkingsop, who was on duty as a watchman in St. James's-place (leading to the square), where some street improvements are taking place, states that about half-past one a respectably-dressed man came up to him and said, "Have you seen a man and a woman go through here?" "I didn't take any notice," returned Blenkingsop. "I have seen some people pass."
Star, 1 Oct. 1888.

[BooksbyBJThompson]

Although i do not subscribe to Trevors theory , i will say this much. I dont see why its such a problem for some that medical knowledge was used in the removal of the organs in Eddowes case . After all, we have this from a doctor who was there at the time

[Coroner]Would you consider that the person who inflicted the wounds possessed anatomical skill? -Dr. Frederick Gordon Brown ''He must have had a good deal of knowledge as to the position of the abdominal organs, and the way to remove them.Would the removal of the kidney, for example, require special knowledge? - It would require a good deal of knowledge as to its position, because it is apt to be overlooked, being covered by a membrane.

Are we who sit here 134 years later really able to say he was dead wrong ?. Might not a medical person also have removed in haste the organs the same way a butcher would /could have. ? Could he have been less precise in his technique enough to remove the organs in such a way that made it look like someone of less skill without even realizing he had ?. Lots of diffent ways of looking at the murder and removal of kate Eddowes organs than meets the eye .IMO

I wouldnt be burning down the bridge just yet .

It's more to the point of behavior than career. Of course, any person in any career could become a serial killer, but with this pattern of attack, I'm sensing severe mental deteroration, which I think would have been well noticed by medical colleagues. Jack isn't of that class. He is able to show abberant behavior/thought patterns in a class not bothered by said. Whether it be from contracting syphilis or some other mental disease, Jack has to be able to not be noticed by others during his off kill times. The medical community wouldn't be blithe to Jack.