Jack's Escape Route?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Hi BJ,

If you accept Cadosch's story as hearing the murder of Chapman then you have to accept that Jack was a risk taker. He stayed in place over Chapman with a potential witness only feet away separated by a fence that the witness had only to look over, and he did this twice. I would rate staying in place during Harvey's short visit the lesser risk.

Cheers, George

Like the coroner, I used to accept Cadoche's evidence, but I changed my mind recently after looking at all the medical evidence.

And that means the murderer didn't take anything like as big a risk.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

That's always been my belief, too, that couple not being Kate and Jack. There's something not right about the woman's hand on the guy's chest. I'm not saying prostitutes would not touch their clients to seal a deal. I'm just saying that was a very intimate touch, moreso from a genuine couple.

I dont know at what point where Jack and Kate would have been at this moment, but my guess is along Mitre Street. Going in, Jack would take a normal way. Going out, a passage, in my opinion.

Well, Lawende and his friends (or at least one of them) seemed certain that the woman was a prostitute.

The fact that she had her hand on his chest suggests they were about to clinch a deal.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Rather than timings in general, this is more about what PC Watkins gives as his own timings and whether this stacks up.

First he says his beat went up to 1am then latterly corrects it to 1:30am. He says a circuit of his beat lasts 12 to 14 minutes. His beat circuit from last leaving Mitre Square to returning to find the body is exactly 14 minutes. Regardless what anyone may think of the timings, this is PC Watkins's own testimony.

But why does he say his beat that night/morning continued UNTIL 1am? He then corrects this to being until 1:30am. The 12-14 minute circuit doesn't fit inside that hour-hour window to allow him to start over at 1:30am to return at 1:44am.

PC Watkins finds the body at 1:44am. If asked if there was any sign of anything the previous time he was in Mitre Square, what's he going to do if that was 1am? He's meant to be going through there every 12-14 minutes. A 40 minute gap and a brutal murder taking place in the middle of it doesn't look great. A count back of 14 minutes from the time he did discover the body gives him a very clean 1:30am. Easy to remember. Of course he would have to say he saw nothing untoward. Not a lie as if he was not there he certainly would not have seen anything. And that may well have been his problem. If he was not there he would not have been sure how long the body had been there, even if the murder itself did happen to take place after 1:30am.

Either way, it would possibly give the killer more time in the square than previously considered.

I think Lawende's evidence places the murder at some time after 1.35 a.m.

[GBinOz]

Explains why Nichols moved next door to Eddowes in 1888 just before Catherine went hoping in Kent

Nichols had been residing at 18 Thrawl Street for 6 weeks when Eddowes was caring for her sister at 6 Thrawl Street.

Nichols was murdered near the London Hospital,Eddowes returns for a reward.

That is just for starters.

Hi Dave,

I am also interested in your theory, as you know. When can we expect the main course and dessert?

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Trevor, this doesn't happen that often, but I agree with every word of that.

I do wish People would stop using 1,2 or even 5 minute descriprncies in reported timings as proof of anything.

I am not having a specific go at anyone who's mentioned times in this thread, just the general idea.


Steve

I second that motion.

[GBinOz]

The freezing in place scenario...

Quite the risk, yes?

Are you thinking that Jack's mindset at that moment may have been, "This is my masterpiece. I'm okay with getting caught with my magnum opus."

Hi BJ,

If you accept Cadosch's story as hearing the murder of Chapman then you have to accept that Jack was a risk taker. He stayed in place over Chapman with a potential witness only feet away separated by a fence that the witness had only to look over, and he did this twice. I would rate staying in place during Harvey's short visit the lesser risk.

Cheers, George

[DJA]

Rather than timings in general, this is more about what PC Watkins gives as his own timings and whether this stacks up.

First he says his beat went up to 1am then latterly corrects it to 1:30am. He says a circuit of his beat lasts 12 to 14 minutes. His beat circuit from last leaving Mitre Square to returning to find the body is exactly 14 minutes. Regardless what anyone may think of the timings, this is PC Watkins's own testimony.

But why does he say his beat that night/morning continued UNTIL 1am? He then corrects this to being until 1:30am. The 12-14 minute circuit doesn't fit inside that hour-hour window to allow him to start over at 1:30am to return at 1:44am.

Edward Watkin, No. 881 of the City Police, said: I was on duty at Mitre-square on Saturday night. I have been in the force seventeen years. I went on duty at 9.45 upon my regular beat. That extends from Duke-street, Aldgate, through Heneage-lane, a portion of Bury-street, through Cree-lane, into Leadenhall-street, along eastward into Mitre-street, then into Mitre-square, round the square again into Mitre-street, then into King-street to St. James's-place, round the place, then into Duke-street, where I started from. That beat takes twelve or fourteen minutes. I had been patrolling the beat continually from ten o'clock at night until one o'clock on Sunday morning.

[DJA]

I've uploaded a video of a walk around Mitre Square to try to demonstrate the available light and conditions in the square on the night of the murder. And the view that Watkins might have had when walking his route around the square.
https://youtu.be/WutzuO2ssP0

Absolutely brilliant ....... um,you know what I mean

Thanks very much Richard.

[Curious Cat]

Trevor, this doesn't happen that often, but I agree with every word of that.

I do wish People would stop using 1,2 or even 5 minute descriprncies in reported timings as proof of anything.

I am not having a specific go at anyone who's mentioned times in this thread, just the general idea.


Steve

Rather than timings in general, this is more about what PC Watkins gives as his own timings and whether this stacks up.

First he says his beat went up to 1am then latterly corrects it to 1:30am. He says a circuit of his beat lasts 12 to 14 minutes. His beat circuit from last leaving Mitre Square to returning to find the body is exactly 14 minutes. Regardless what anyone may think of the timings, this is PC Watkins's own testimony.

But why does he say his beat that night/morning continued UNTIL 1am? He then corrects this to being until 1:30am. The 12-14 minute circuit doesn't fit inside that hour-hour window to allow him to start over at 1:30am to return at 1:44am.

PC Watkins finds the body at 1:44am. If asked if there was any sign of anything the previous time he was in Mitre Square, what's he going to do if that was 1am? He's meant to be going through there every 12-14 minutes. A 40 minute gap and a brutal murder taking place in the middle of it doesn't look great. A count back of 14 minutes from the time he did discover the body gives him a very clean 1:30am. Easy to remember. Of course he would have to say he saw nothing untoward. Not a lie as if he was not there he certainly would not have seen anything. And that may well have been his problem. If he was not there he would not have been sure how long the body had been there, even if the murder itself did happen to take place after 1:30am.

Either way, it would possibly give the killer more time in the square than previously considered.

[richardh]

I've uploaded a video of a walk around Mitre Square to try to demonstrate the available light and conditions in the square on the night of the murder. And the view that Watkins might have had when walking his route around the square.

https://youtu.be/WutzuO2ssP0

[BooksbyBJThompson]

Hi Frank,

Not quite. Jack knew exactly where Harvey was when he came down Church Passage, presuming that he hadn't already left before Harvey entered the Passage. He may have scarpered when Harvey entered the Passage, or he may have stayed by freezing in place or hiding around the corner near Mitre St, and continued his mutilations after Harvey left, or he may have followed Harvey at a discreet distance rather than risking running into Watkins, whose location was unknown to him. My choice would be the latter.

Best regards, George

The freezing in place scenario...

Quite the risk, yes?

Are you thinking that Jack's mindset at that moment may have been, "This is my masterpiece. I'm okay with getting caught with my magnum opus."

[BooksbyBJThompson]

I dont believe the couple Lawende and co saw at 1.30/5 were Jack the Ripper and Eddowes.

If indeed they entred via Mitre st ,it would give Jack the 13/15 mins of murder time and organ removal before p.c Harvey came back into the square. This is a more reasonable timeframe, rather than the two of them entering via the passageway leading into the square allowing only say 7/8 mins.

That's always been my belief, too, that couple not being Kate and Jack. There's something not right about the woman's hand on the guy's chest. I'm not saying prostitutes would not touch their clients to seal a deal. I'm just saying that was a very intimate touch, moreso from a genuine couple.

I dont know at what point where Jack and Kate would have been at this moment, but my guess is along Mitre Street. Going in, Jack would take a normal way. Going out, a passage, in my opinion.

[Elamarna]

This 14 minute beat time is not written in stone, the officer could have stopped and spoke to someone on his beat or he could have taken more time to check his property on his beat, both could have effected his beat time. Again resechers are getting carried away with trying to work with precise timings when they are only estimated times.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor, this doesn't happen that often, but I agree with every word of that.

I do wish People would stop using 1,2 or even 5 minute descriprncies in reported timings as proof of anything.

I am not having a specific go at anyone who's mentioned times in this thread, just the general idea.


Steve

[Curious Cat]

This 14 minute beat time is not written in stone, the officer could have stopped and spoke to someone on his beat or he could have taken more time to check his property on his beat, both could have effected his beat time. Again resechers are getting carried away with trying to work with precise timings when they are only estimated times.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

My point is that there is a half hour gap in PC Watkins's patrol between 1am and 1:30am. A pretty crucial time for it to occur. He says his beat takes 12-14 minutes to do a circuit. His discovery of Catherine's body at 1:44am is spot on 14 minutes after his previous sweep of Mitre Square at 1:30am, when he says nothing was there. So if he is restarting his beat at Mitre Square where was he having his break? Where did he stop at 1am? The pattern of his beat would have him in on very near Mitre Square at that point.

If PC Watkins was having a break in the very area this murder took place at the very moment it was happening and he missed hearing or seeing anything that would be quite embarrassing. Better, then, to say he saw nothing at 1:30am but there was when he returned at 1:44am. He counts back to the latest he would have last been in the square before finding the body because we don't actually know where or when he restarted his beat after his break at 1am. This may account for the timing for the murder and escape appearing to be so tight. If PC Watkins made up his 1:30am sweep of the square then the killer would have had more time to carry out the murder, the mutilations and escape from the area without being seen.

This is all speculative on my part of course.

[Mark J D]

Explains why Nichols moved next door to Eddowes in 1888 just before Catherine went hoping in Kent

Nichols had been residing at 18 Thrawl Street for 6 weeks when Eddowes was caring for her sister at 6 Thrawl Street.

Nichols was murdered near the London Hospital,Eddowes returns for a reward.

That is just for starters.

It sounds terrific! I hope this is all safely written down somewhere...

M.