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  • #61
    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

    I also tried to write a few capitals at 3/4" height with a regular stick of chalk - some came out readable but the italics (lower-case?) were not readable.
    There's something here that we are missing.
    Hi Jon,

    Were you conducting this experiment in daylight or in the dark? Even on smooth rendered brickwork I find it difficult to believe that anything legible could have been achieved in lower case at that size with a stick of chalk in the dark.

    Best regards, George
    “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

    “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.”

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    • #62
      Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

      Hi Jon,

      Were you conducting this experiment in daylight or in the dark? Even on smooth rendered brickwork I find it difficult to believe that anything legible could have been achieved in lower case at that size with a stick of chalk in the dark.

      Best regards, George
      yet we have the evidence to say it was done. i doubt the ripper went out that night intending to shout lipski and follow it up with a jewish slur. The implication being that he may have always had some chalk on him and may have written other messages, so writing like this was not unfamiliar. just because it seems like a difficult thing for us to attempt today does not mean it was for him in 1888. There were other chalk messages, discussed on another thread, and ripper may have written some of those. I believe there was one found near Hanbury Street that said something like 'this is my third murder' (tabram, nicholls, chapman?). The FBI profile also mentions the possibility of graphic drawings - some of these other chalk messages had rude depictions of women with a knife pointing at them. I suspect many of these other chalk message were written by the same nut jobs that sent in most of the ripper letters, but some of them could be genuine.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by spyglass View Post

        It wasnt written at eye level, more waist height downwards.
        Halse tells us it was written on the black Dado, and that the black Dado came up the wall about 4 feet (48 inch), the wall being white above that.

        Some years back we managed to get the dimensions of those 19th century house bricks, and the cement line between the bricks.
        This photo shows the cement line at 49.5 inch from the ground, the line at 72 inch (6 ft) is just for reference. The apron (red) must have been somewhere below the graffiti, as long says.



        We don't really know which side of the entrance the graffiti was written, but there was a lamp towards the left side, which should mean the right side of the archway would be lit, the left side would be in shadow, so it's just more likely to have been on the right side.
        Regards, Jon S.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

          Halse tells us it was written on the black Dado, and that the black Dado came up the wall about 4 feet (48 inch), the wall being white above that.

          Some years back we managed to get the dimensions of those 19th century house bricks, and the cement line between the bricks.
          This photo shows the cement line at 49.5 inch from the ground, the line at 72 inch (6 ft) is just for reference. The apron (red) must have been somewhere below the graffiti, as long says.



          We don't really know which side of the entrance the graffiti was written, but there was a lamp towards the left side, which should mean the right side of the archway would be lit, the left side would be in shadow, so it's just more likely to have been on the right side.
          nice graphic. if anything like accurate with the position of the writing and apron below, the scenario that the two are unconnected seems even more ridiculous.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

            nice graphic. if anything like accurate with the position of the writing and apron below, the scenario that the two are unconnected seems even more ridiculous.
            yer, have to agree with that .
            'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Sunny Delight View Post

              Hi Wickerman,

              The man who accosted Sarah Lewis and her friend or sister was seen talking to two women by a Mrs. Kennedy(probably Lewis using a pseudonym) as she passed the Brittania on the way to the Keyler's on the night Kelly was murdered. She does not say the women was Kelly- just that she was hatless...
              On Thursday night Gallagher and his wife retired to rest at a fairly early hour. Their married daughter, a woman named Mrs. Kennedy, came home, however, at a late hour. Passing the Britannia, commonly known as Ringer's, at the top of Dorset street, at three o'clock on the Friday morning, she saw the deceased talking to a respectably dressed man, whom she identified as having accosted her a night or two before.
              ......Mrs. Kennedy is confident that the man whom she noticed speaking to the woman Kelly at three o'clock on Friday morning is identical with the person who accosted her on the previous Wednesday.
              Evening News, 10 Nov.



              You are taking Walter Dew's comments that Kelly was often hatless adding 2 +2 and getting 5. Strange that there is no record of the other woman being found or even attempts by Police to trace her if she was with Kelly so close to her death. We cannot know this person was Kelly. It may have been. The liklihood is that it was not.
              (Sarah Lewis)
              In the doorway of the deceased's house I saw a man in a wideawake hat standing. He was not tall, but a stout-looking man. He was looking up the court as if he was waiting for some one. I also saw a man and a woman who had no hat on and were the worse for drink pass up the court.
              Daily News, 13 Nov.

              A woman with no hat on - that is hatless. Nothing to do with Walter Dew, though his observation is consistent with other evidence.

              Everyone is welcome to invent their own drama, I go by what is stated in writing by witnesses.


              Bowyer at the Inquest did not mention the Wednesday night incident but said he had last seen her on Wednesday afternoon when he had spoken to her in the Court.
              Bowyer was never asked.
              When you are in court you only answer the questions given to you.


              Regards, Jon S.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post

                So, we're looking for a short fella, habitué of the area, may have had cause to have a piece of chalk on him (like a lecturer, for example), but who also was so adept at surgery, he could work in darkness, "as if by feel"? Seems a long shot ticking those boxes... especially if said individual was also a specialist in kidneys.
                Or it was simply a schoolkid, most graffiti is written by kids. There was a school around the corner.
                Regards, Jon S.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

                  nice graphic. if anything like accurate with the position of the writing and apron below, the scenario that the two are unconnected seems even more ridiculous.
                  bingo. they are not only connected by proximity but by the content of the message and events of that night:message-disparaging jews, events-ripper interupted by jews.

                  another non mystery of this case, that some want to make into one for some reason.
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                    On Thursday night Gallagher and his wife retired to rest at a fairly early hour. Their married daughter, a woman named Mrs. Kennedy, came home, however, at a late hour. Passing the Britannia, commonly known as Ringer's, at the top of Dorset street, at three o'clock on the Friday morning, she saw the deceased talking to a respectably dressed man, whom she identified as having accosted her a night or two before.
                    ......Mrs. Kennedy is confident that the man whom she noticed speaking to the woman Kelly at three o'clock on Friday morning is identical with the person who accosted her on the previous Wednesday.
                    Evening News, 10 Nov.





                    (Sarah Lewis)
                    In the doorway of the deceased's house I saw a man in a wideawake hat standing. He was not tall, but a stout-looking man. He was looking up the court as if he was waiting for some one. I also saw a man and a woman who had no hat on and were the worse for drink pass up the court.
                    Daily News, 13 Nov.

                    A woman with no hat on - that is hatless. Nothing to do with Walter Dew, though his observation is consistent with other evidence.

                    Everyone is welcome to invent their own drama, I go by what is stated in writing by witnesses.




                    Bowyer was never asked.
                    When you are in court you only answer the questions given to you.

                    The Star reported it differently meaning we cannot take the Evening News account at face value:

                    "....She states that about three o'clock on Friday morning she entered Dorset-street on her way to her parent's house, which is situate immediately opposite that in which the murder was committed. She noticed three persons at the corner of the street near the Britannia public house. There was a man - a young man, respectably dressed, and with a dark moustache - talking to a woman whom she did not know, and also a female poorly clad, and without any headgear. The man and woman appeared to be the worse for liquor, and she heard the man ask, "Are you coming." Whereupon the woman, who appeared to be obstinate, turned in an opposite direction to which the man apparently wished her to go. Mrs. Kennedy went on her way and nothing unusual occurred until about half an hour later. She states that she did not retire to rest immediately she reached her parents' abode, but sat up, and between half-past three and a quarter to four she
                    HEARD A CRY OF "MURDER."

                    I think it safe to say Mrs. Kennedy was Sarah Lewis using a pseudonym. Lewis told the Inquest;

                    "On Friday morning, about half-past two a.m., when I was going to Miller's-court, I met the same man with a woman in Commercial-street, near Mr. Ringer's public-house (the Britannia). He had no overcoat on.
                    [Coroner] Had he the black bag ? - Yes.
                    [Coroner] Were the man and woman quarrelling ? - No; they were talking. As I passed he looked at me. I don't know whether he recognised me. There was no policeman about."

                    If Lewis had seen Kelly she most certainly would have said so at the Inquest. She did see the man who accosted her. Mrs. Kennedy in one report says she saw Kelly and in another that there were two women. The press statements are difficult to reconcile even if Mrs. Kennedy was not Sarah Lewis.


                    In relation to timings Hutchinson fixed his time seeing Kelly at around 2am. The whole incident involving Hutchinson, Kelly and A.K man took most likely 10-15 minutes absolute maximum. Probably slightly less. The latest Hutchinson set up vigil at Crossinghams was 2:15am. Lewis fixed the time as 2;30am on her way to Mrs. Keyler's. Again Lewis here is rather vague and frustratingly it is difficult to decipher what she meant. She told the Inquest:

                    "When I went into the court, opposite the lodging-house I saw a man with a wideawake. There was no one talking to him. He was a stout-looking man, and not very tall. The hat was black. I did not take any notice of his clothes. The man was looking up the court; he seemed to be waiting or looking for some one. (This has to be Hutchinson). Further on there was a man and woman - the later being in drink. There was nobody in the court. I dozed in a chair at Mrs. Keyler's, and woke at about half- past three. I heard the clock strike."

                    I think though she just muddled the events. She sees Hutchinson standing as if waiting for someone. Further on from him she sees a man and a woman the latter in drink. Then entering the court no one was there.

                    Bowyer was asked when he last saw Kelly alive at the Inquest:

                    By the Jury: When did you see her last alive ? - On Wednesday afternoon, in the court, when I spoke to her. McCarthy's shop is at the corner of Miller's-court.
                    Last edited by Sunny Delight; 06-29-2022, 03:18 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                      Halse tells us it was written on the black Dado, and that the black Dado came up the wall about 4 feet (48 inch), the wall being white above that.

                      Some years back we managed to get the dimensions of those 19th century house bricks, and the cement line between the bricks.
                      This photo shows the cement line at 49.5 inch from the ground, the line at 72 inch (6 ft) is just for reference. The apron (red) must have been somewhere below the graffiti, as long says.



                      We don't really know which side of the entrance the graffiti was written, but there was a lamp towards the left side, which should mean the right side of the archway would be lit, the left side would be in shadow, so it's just more likely to have been on the right side.
                      That's a really interesting photo. I concur with Walter Dew though. It would have been suicidal to stop and pen a message with the apron so close and the knife still upon his person. Even if the graffitti was written by the killer what does it really tell us that we don't already know?

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        if JtR did write the words, why would if be write about jews,
                        what is he giving away as such. ?

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          i mean i dont think he cares about racism or anything !

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by milchmanuk View Post
                            i mean i dont think he cares about racism or anything !
                            He cares about credit. Like every narcissistic serial killer does.
                            Author of 'Jack the Ripper: Threads' out now on Amazon > UK | USA | CA | AUS
                            JayHartley.com

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post
                              nice graphic. if anything like accurate with the position of the writing and apron below, the scenario that the two are unconnected seems even more ridiculous.
                              I believe the portion of apron was found inside the stairwell passage, not right underneath the writing.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

                                I believe the portion of apron was found inside the stairwell passage, not right underneath the writing.
                                theres a chance he through it in there walking past ,
                                so he put organs into something else ?
                                you think he would went equipped to carry away organs seeing he new he,s quarry .

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