Contents of Room 13.

[richardh]

Can someone point me in the direction of a list of the contents (items) that were in No.13 at the time of Mary's murder, please?

Is there a contemporary account which lists what was in the room?

I'm talking about furniture, cooking equipment, items like places and bottles, forks, cups etc.
Off the top of my head, I believe that there were:

Large table
Small (bedside) table
Washstand
tin tub (under the bed)
ONE chair?
Bed & mattress
sheets, pillow, blankets
kettle
small cupboard (in chimney alcove)
Painting on the chimney breast (fisherman's widow)?
Some ginger beer bottles
A broken bottle with a candle inside.
An old coat hung up over the small window.


Questions
Were there proper curtains on the large window?
Chamber pot?
Clothes (I know many were burned in the fire that night)?
Plates, pots?
Hairbrushes, ablutions items?
food items, boxes, packets?

Thanks

[Prosector]

I think that's more or less correct although there are a lot of different versions out there. Jean Overton Fuller (Sickert and the Ripper Crimes 1990) is adamant that there was no washstand or chamber pot and MJK had to leave her room for those purposes - but she seems to have taken her information from numerous other books rather than her own research. Several sources are consistent in saying that MJK's day clothes were all neatly folded either on a chair at the foot of the bed or on the bed itself depending on which account you read although there seem to be no sign of them in either of the two police photographs which may have been taken after they were moved. The picture was a popular print called The Fisherman's Widow. There were at least three popular prints of that name in circulation at that time but the one by Charles James Lewis (1830-1892) was the most popular and therefore the most likely to have been in MJK's room.
I think the most telling thing is that there were apparently no personal belongings of any kind found. MJK is reported to have received letters while there and surely a lonely girl far from her family would have kept at last a few of those. She was the sort of girl who would have posessed atleast a few tawdry rings or items of jewellery but none were found. I think the killer was taking good care that nothing which might identify her were left behind.
Prosector

[DJA]

tin tub (under the bed)
A broken wine glass with a candle
An old coat "hung up over the small window" earlier that night. Maria Harvey's Friday afternoon.


Questions
Were there proper curtains on the large window? Yes. Bowyer lifted one.
Chamber pot? Tin tub prolly served a dual purpose,especially on a cold wet night.
Clothes (I know many were burned in the fire that night)?

FIFY.

There was a decent resolution photo of Henry Gawen Sutton on the Internet.Same as my avatar. (Actually there were two,the other a candid shot).
Is the current one suitable for your wizardry with a small contribution?
He seems to have a left cauliflower ear.

[Ozzy]

I noticed what you had done with the Victorian bed photo via the links over on Howie's site Richard. Had me fooled for a moment! By asking for the list are you trying to recreate the whole room in the same way?

[richardh]

I noticed what you had done with the Victorian bed photo via the links over on Howie's site Richard. Had me fooled for a moment! By asking for the list are you trying to recreate the whole room in the same way?

Yep. I've got most of it done now. I just want to ensure a degree of accuracy and include only what was in the room in Mary's day. It's tricky and open to debate and argument but I want the latest finished VR of No.13 to be as authentic as I have it in my minds-eye.

[The Rookie Detective]

Can someone point me in the direction of a list of the contents (items) that were in No.13 at the time of Mary's murder, please?

Is there a contemporary account which lists what was in the room?

I'm talking about furniture, cooking equipment, items like places and bottles, forks, cups etc.
Off the top of my head, I believe that there were:

Large table
Small (bedside) table
Washstand
tin tub (under the bed)
ONE chair?
Bed & mattress
sheets, pillow, blankets
kettle
small cupboard (in chimney alcove)
Painting on the chimney breast (fisherman's widow)?
Some ginger beer bottles
A broken bottle with a candle inside.
An old coat hung up over the small window.


Questions
Were there proper curtains on the large window?
Chamber pot?
Clothes (I know many were burned in the fire that night)?
Plates, pots?
Hairbrushes, ablutions items?
food items, boxes, packets?

Thanks

Note that the only thing that stands out from that list I.e doesn’t fit, are the Ginger Beer bottles.

it has always been my opinion that the bottles were a clue left by the killer as to his identity.


when you tie in the specific reference to a Ginger beer bottles in written correspondence, then the clue is more important than we realise.


TRD

[Azarna]

Ooh, this sounds like a very exciting project.

[The Rookie Detective]

Charles Lechmere lived next door to a Ginger Beer Maker.

Means nothing in terms of evidence of course, but I like to look at the finer coincidental details that most overlook.

TRD

[The Rookie Detective]

richardh your project sounds amazing and i believe it’s a brilliant progression forward into the case.

it brings the whole world into modern day and VR will really add another crucial layer into the world of ripperology.

With regards to the VR aspect, are you talking about a fully interactive immersive experience in which one could explore the crime scenes?

I can envisage putting on a VR headset and being able to fully interact with the crime scenes (based on the most definitive evidence to date)

The possibilities are endless


imagine being able to interact with the crime scenes


Like being Robert Paul and literally approaching Lechmere as he approaches you in Bucks Row...

and being able to observe the scene as close to reality as possible.

Now that would be something


TRD

[Joshua Rogan]

Here is the PMG description of the room, with a few extra minor details and the mention of ginger beer bottles, for context.

Pall Mall Gazette 12 Nov
"The inspector, holding a candle stuck in a bottle, stood at the head of the filthy, bloodstained bed, and repeated the horrible details with appalling minuteness. He indicated with one hand the bloodstains on the wall, and point with the other to the pools which had ebbed out on to the mattress. The little table was still on the left of the bedstead, which occupied the larger portion of the room. A farthing dip in a bottle did not serve to illuminate the fearful gloom, but I was able to see what a wretched hole the poor murdered woman called "home". The only attempts at decoration were a couple of engravings, one, "The Fisherman's Widow", stuck over the mantelpiece: while in the corner was an open cupboard, containing a few bits of pottery, some ginger-beer bottles, and a bit of bread on a plate."

[DJA]

Interesting article Joshua.

The doctors had been working on Mary the previous morning.
One of them offered the opinion she had been murdered between 2am and 3am.

That is Hutchinson and A man's time frame.

[DJA]

Crikey!

I know of a London Hospital pathologist who was also on the Vestry Board.

Nah! "Umpossible" to quote Ralph Wiggums.

[Losmandris]

Can someone point me in the direction of a list of the contents (items) that were in No.13 at the time of Mary's murder, please?

Is there a contemporary account which lists what was in the room?

I'm talking about furniture, cooking equipment, items like places and bottles, forks, cups etc.
Off the top of my head, I believe that there were:

Large table
Small (bedside) table
Washstand
tin tub (under the bed)
ONE chair?
Bed & mattress
sheets, pillow, blankets
kettle
small cupboard (in chimney alcove)
Painting on the chimney breast (fisherman's widow)?
Some ginger beer bottles
A broken bottle with a candle inside.
An old coat hung up over the small window.


Questions
Were there proper curtains on the large window?
Chamber pot?
Clothes (I know many were burned in the fire that night)?
Plates, pots?
Hairbrushes, ablutions items?
food items, boxes, packets?

Thanks

As always will really look forward to seeing this!

Tristan

[Losmandris]

I think that's more or less correct although there are a lot of different versions out there. Jean Overton Fuller (Sickert and the Ripper Crimes 1990) is adamant that there was no washstand or chamber pot and MJK had to leave her room for those purposes - but she seems to have taken her information from numerous other books rather than her own research. Several sources are consistent in saying that MJK's day clothes were all neatly folded either on a chair at the foot of the bed or on the bed itself depending on which account you read although there seem to be no sign of them in either of the two police photographs which may have been taken after they were moved. The picture was a popular print called The Fisherman's Widow. There were at least three popular prints of that name in circulation at that time but the one by Charles James Lewis (1830-1892) was the most popular and therefore the most likely to have been in MJK's room.
I think the most telling thing is that there were apparently no personal belongings of any kind found. MJK is reported to have received letters while there and surely a lonely girl far from her family would have kept at last a few of those. She was the sort of girl who would have posessed atleast a few tawdry rings or items of jewellery but none were found. I think the killer was taking good care that nothing which might identify her were left behind.
Prosector

I presume Barrett didn't have anything to say about the contents of the room?

Can we assume the killer came with a bag then? I know it may be a daft question but how common was it in 1888 for people to be walking about with a bag? Did people just wrap things up when carrying them?

Tristan

[Michael W Richards]

The folded clothing I believe was Marys, but some of Marias clients, or Marias, laundry was also there. The tin washtub under the bed is visible in the photograph MJK2, which suggests recent use. We are told Maria and Mary spent that afternoon in her room. There is a water faucet in the alcove just outside Marys windows. Too bad Barnett wasnt asked what the 2 of them were doing when he arrived early Thursday night. The folded clothing, for me anyway, suggests that when she undressed she did so with some care. And set her clothing aside for the next day. Since the only accredited witness who saw Mary return to that room saw her with Blotchy Face, and since Mary Ann nor Elizabeth..until 1:20-1:30, saw Blotchy leave, and since we have Mary Ann going back out again past that room back and forth, I believe the evidence could support a murder time within an hour of Marys room going dark and silent. When Elizabeth goes upstairs.

The main problem with a murder time is that voice heard by 2 witnesses who both believed it originated from inside that courtyard. No witness came forward to claim that cry out. Since Mary couldnt have done so, she is a good possibility for that voice. There are no sounds heard by 2 witnesses within earshot of that room after that call out. So if she is letting someone in, or someone out, that means the real killer is arriving, or he comes later. Thereby neatly dealing with the non-credible source who for a few days confuses the investigation by de-villainizing Wideawake and inserting another unseen or unheard by anyone else re-arrival of Mary. To many unseen comings and goings for a woman who could barely stand from excess drink when she first arrived home before midnight.