Contents of Room 13.

[DJA]

I know it may be a daft question but how common was it in 1888 for people to be walking about with a bag?
Tristan

Quite popular with the medical profession from that time.

[Joshua Rogan]

I know it may be a daft question but how common was it in 1888 for people to be walking about with a bag? Did people just wrap things up when carrying them?

From the PMG's inquest report 12 Nov;

"A mahogany table, drawn up against the windows, was laden with hats, black bags and papers, belonging to the army of reporters."

[Joshua Rogan]

I presume Barrett didn't have anything to say about the contents of the room?

All I can think of is his pipe.

From the Daily Telegraph 13 Nov;
Abberline: "There was a man's clay pipe in the room, and Barnett informed me that he smoked it."

[caz]

The folded clothing I believe was Marys, but some of Marias clients, or Marias, laundry was also there. The tin washtub under the bed is visible in the photograph MJK2, which suggests recent use. We are told Maria and Mary spent that afternoon in her room. There is a water faucet in the alcove just outside Marys windows. Too bad Barnett wasnt asked what the 2 of them were doing when he arrived early Thursday night. The folded clothing, for me anyway, suggests that when she undressed she did so with some care. And set her clothing aside for the next day. Since the only accredited witness who saw Mary return to that room saw her with Blotchy Face, and since Mary Ann nor Elizabeth..until 1:20-1:30, saw Blotchy leave, and since we have Mary Ann going back out again past that room back and forth, I believe the evidence could support a murder time within an hour of Marys room going dark and silent. When Elizabeth goes upstairs.

The main problem with a murder time is that voice heard by 2 witnesses who both believed it originated from inside that courtyard. No witness came forward to claim that cry out. Since Mary couldnt have done so, she is a good possibility for that voice. There are no sounds heard by 2 witnesses within earshot of that room after that call out. So if she is letting someone in, or someone out, that means the real killer is arriving, or he comes later. Thereby neatly dealing with the non-credible source who for a few days confuses the investigation by de-villainizing Wideawake and inserting another unseen or unheard by anyone else re-arrival of Mary. To many unseen comings and goings for a woman who could barely stand from excess drink when she first arrived home before midnight.

Hi Michael,

What is your source for any of the clothing being 'folded'?

I seem to recall that 'neatly folded', to describe Kelly's clothes, may only have crept in much later, in mid-20th century sources, but I don't know when the 'folded' element first saw print. There is quite a difference between a pile of neatly folded clothing on a chair, which could have been recently laundered, and clothes removed by Kelly and simply draped over a chair, before getting into bed. Could even have been a combination of the two. If Kelly was planning to put the same clothes on in the morning, I'm wondering why she would have folded them at all.

It would be interesting to know if there is any evidence either way.

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael,

What is your source for any of the clothing being 'folded'?

I seem to recall that 'neatly folded', to describe Kelly's clothes, may only have crept in much later, in mid-20th century sources, but I don't know when the 'folded' element first saw print. There is quite a difference between a pile of neatly folded clothing on a chair, which could have been recently laundered, and clothes removed by Kelly and simply draped over a chair, before getting into bed. Could even have been a combination of the two. If Kelly was planning to put the same clothes on in the morning, I'm wondering why she would have folded them at all.

It would be interesting to know if there is any evidence either way.

Love,

Caz
X

I believe I do recall a source suggesting it was "neatly" folded too, although just folded or put away with care was what I was suggesting. There is no source that I recall saying the clothes were draped or tossed over the chair. I'll see if I can find an early reference. I believe it also is noted that her boots were there as well, which does suggest undressing in a unhurried manner. Having a spot to put ones clothes at night is still up for grabs depending on who you talk to, but Mary and most of these women had to wear the same clothes for days on end. One would imagine they would put them away at night more carefully. Dew does comment on her clean white apron.

[caz]

I'm not sure how taking her boots off suggests to you that she was undressing in an 'unhurried' manner, but perhaps you could explain your reasoning further.

The very first thing I have always done, when arriving home in winter after being out walking, is to kick off my boots in anything but an unhurried manner. My feet thank me for it, as well as my nice clean floors.

Since Dew commented on Kelly's clean white apron, I would think she'd have tried to avoid spreading all that horse poo round the room too.

Love,

Caz
X

[Joshua Rogan]

Times (and other papers) 10 Nov;
"The clothes of the woman were lying by the side of the bed, as though they had been taken off and laid down in the ordinary manner."

Pretty vague. Some people's "ordinary" is neatly folded over a chair, other people just leave a puddle of clothes on the floor.

Dew, writing 50 years later, says he remembers Kelly as "usually in the company of two or three of her kind, fairly neatly dressed and invariably wearing a clean white apron, but no hat."

As far as I recall, no contemporary witnesses mention her wearing an apron, clean or otherwise.

[DJA]

Times (and other papers) 10 Nov;
"The clothes of the woman were lying by the side of the bed, as though they had been taken off and laid down in the ordinary manner."

Pretty vague. Some people's "ordinary" is neatly folded over a chair, other people just leave a puddle of clothes on the floor.

Dew, writing 50 years later, says he remembers Kelly as "usually in the company of two or three of her kind, fairly neatly dressed and invariably wearing a clean white apron, but no hat."

As far as I recall, no contemporary witnesses mention her wearing an apron, clean or otherwise.

Dew's "memory" sounds more like Eddowes sans hat.

Was Mary Kelly's footwear placed near the fireplace?

I'd be placing clothing on a chair to "air".

Regarding her intoxication .....and I'm simply throwing this in the mix .....
there is a possibility she had been slipped Chloral hydrate and was in a blackout.
She'd have still been singing.
It is an odd drug.I took some once circa 1986.A client had been prescribed and I was genuinely concerned.Plus my interest in Jack the Ripper.
Nothing much seems to be taking place,a bit hazy,then boom ..... dead to the world ..... or so you think.
Really nasty headache/hangover.
Thankfully not prescribed much since 2012.

Regarding the heart.
The AM on the day before the Inquest,Mary was sewn up,with all "bits and pieces",my term,accounted for.

[Prosector]

Regarding whether the killer came with a bag. He may not have needed to. Craig (for example) usually wore an Ulster, a large cloak-like overcoat that had huge internal and external pockets of the sort that were often called poachers' pockets and also had very wide sleeves.

[Michael W Richards]

Dew's "memory" sounds more like Eddowes sans hat.

Was Mary Kelly's footwear placed near the fireplace?

I'd be placing clothing on a chair to "air".

Regarding her intoxication .....and I'm simply throwing this in the mix .....
there is a possibility she had been slipped Chloral hydrate and was in a blackout.
She'd have still been singing.
It is an odd drug.I took some once circa 1986.A client had been prescribed and I was genuinely concerned.Plus my interest in Jack the Ripper.
Nothing much seems to be taking place,a bit hazy,then boom ..... dead to the world ..... or so you think.
Really nasty headache/hangover.
Thankfully not prescribed much since 2012.

Regarding the heart.
The AM on the day before the Inquest,Mary was sewn up,with all "bits and pieces",my term,accounted for.

They had performed what I learned was referred to as a Volte Face, in essence a physiological reconstruction using what was there.

[Michael W Richards]

I'm not sure how taking her boots off suggests to you that she was undressing in an 'unhurried' manner, but perhaps you could explain your reasoning further.

The very first thing I have always done, when arriving home in winter after being out walking, is to kick off my boots in anything but an unhurried manner. My feet thank me for it, as well as my nice clean floors.

Since Dew commented on Kelly's clean white apron, I would think she'd have tried to avoid spreading all that horse poo round the room too.

Love,

Caz
X

Its not that they were taken off Caz, its that they were "placed" by the chair. If I recall that snippet correctly. Which again, suggests to me a woman undressing and placing her things on the chair as she does, Im sure bearing in mind that she would have to wear them again in the morning. Which as it turns out was something she neednt have worried about.

[caz]

I'm still not sure what your point is, Michael.

Short of flinging her boots and clothes across the room and leaving them where they landed, what else did you expect Kelly to do with her boots and clothes after taking them off, if not to put them somewhere, either in front of the fire or on the chair, ready for the morning?

The word 'placed' is surely just a reference to where things were found, so the word could just as easily have been 'put' or 'left', without implying any particular care was taken by Kelly in the process.

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

I'm still not sure what your point is, Michael.

Short of flinging her boots and clothes across the room and leaving them where they landed, what else did you expect Kelly to do with her boots and clothes after taking them off, if not to put them somewhere, either in front of the fire or on the chair, ready for the morning?

The word 'placed' is surely just a reference to where things were found, so the word could just as easily have been 'put' or 'left', without implying any particular care was taken by Kelly in the process.

Love,

Caz
X

Im talking about the general care taken when taking things off. It doesnt seem by any description Ive read that it appeared as if she kicked her boots off and tossed her clothing haphazardly over the back of the chair. Like she would perhaps when getting ready to service a client. The descriptions include" neathly folded", which even if not exactly accurate, does suggest some degree of care.

Again, she had to wear these on Mayors Day...or assumed she did.

[DJA]

They had performed what I learned was referred to as a Volte Face, in essence a physiological reconstruction using what was there.

[caz]

Im talking about the general care taken when taking things off. It doesnt seem by any description Ive read that it appeared as if she kicked her boots off and tossed her clothing haphazardly over the back of the chair. Like she would perhaps when getting ready to service a client. The descriptions include" neathly folded", which even if not exactly accurate, does suggest some degree of care.

Again, she had to wear these on Mayors Day...or assumed she did.

As I said, I don't think there's a 19th century source for the word 'neatly', but in any case I wouldn't read too much into it. I suspect the way Kelly undressed and what she did with her clothing would depend more on habit than on who she was with at the time - unless of course the man in question had certain 'requests'.

Love,

Caz
X