Contents of Room 13.

[DJA]

Just viewed Richard’s amazing updated VR of room 13 Millers Court and have a query (but couldn’t post on that particular thread) - Just a query regarding the wall partition in 13 Millers court.
How secure was that partition?
as I understand it, directly behind that partition was the ‘storeroom’ or a stairwell leading upstairs?

TRD

The partition was the house's entrance door into the parlor that became 13.
It was nailed shut.

[caz]

Actually its not my choice either, its from a contemporary quote. Ill see if I can rummage around for it.

Yes, that would be good. I don't recall seeing the word 'neatly' in any contemporary sources, and there was a discussion about it several years ago, which ended in the suggestion that it may not date further back than the mid-20th century.

[richardh]

Just viewed Richard’s amazing updated VR of room 13 Millers Court and have a query (but couldn’t post on that particular thread) - Just a query regarding the wall partition in 13 Millers court.
How secure was that partition?
as I understand it, directly behind that partition was the ‘storeroom’ or a stairwell leading upstairs?

Apologies for asking a really silly question, but considering that the door was locked and there have been discussions on how exactly the killer exited the room/locked door/key scenario, is there a chance that the killer entered through the partition wall while Kelly was sleeping?
could the killer have come and gone through a manipulated wall/door partition and therefore not have entered or exited through the alleyway into Millers Court in the first place.

TRD

Lots of debate on the partition over the years with no real consensus. I don't think the partition was ever clarified in any contemporary accounts and it was simply referred to as 'a partition' in the news reports and police files (someone more expert than me could clarity this).
In my opinion, the partition wasn't a partition in the conventional use of the word. We think of a partition as a 'construction created to divide a space' but the 'partition' in No13 was simply the wall and doorway dividing the room (No13) from the front room of the house (was a single large room that they (the users/owners of the house) called 'the shed' - basically the empty front part of the house used as storage space.

So, the partition was simply the wall with a single locked door (seen in the MJK2 photo of Mary on the bed). I say 'locked' because I would think it WAS locked to stop entry/exit between those two rooms in the house. The owners wouldn't want the occupants of No13 to have access to the shed or the rest of the house, so I reckon it was locked and thus not an escape option for the murderer. The position of the bed also suggests that the door in the 'partition' was never used.

Regarding any stairs on the other side of the 'partition': this is also a bone of contention with no consensus. Obviously, there were stairs to the floor above but where they were, there position and location have never been ascertained. They could run up the side of the partition wall from a doorway in the passage leading to the court. Or they could be configured like the layout in the house in Hanbury street - See the image (link below) viewed from the front door looking toward the back of the house:
https://imgc.allpostersimages.com/im...=550&h=550&p=0

This part of a video I made a while back about the layout of the Dorset street house shows what I mean:

https://youtu.be/qlqov49u_dM?t=258

Basically, lots of speculation and not a lot of factual evidence to actually arrive at a positive conclusion.

[The Rookie Detective]

Just viewed Richard’s amazing updated VR of room 13 Millers Court and have a query (but couldn’t post on that particular thread) - Just a query regarding the wall partition in 13 Millers court.
How secure was that partition?
as I understand it, directly behind that partition was the ‘storeroom’ or a stairwell leading upstairs?

Apologies for asking a really silly question, but considering that the door was locked and there has been discussions on how exactly the killer exited the room/locked door/key scenario, is there a chance that the killer entered through the partition wall while Kelly was sleeping?
could the killer have come and gone through a manipulated wall/door partition and therefore not have entered or exited through the alleyway into Millers Court in the first place.

TRD

[Michael W Richards]

'Neatly' is indeed subjective, Michael, but it was your word, not mine. If you can find a 19th century source for it, then fine. We can both use it in future.

I'm quite happy to follow the known facts, but we both choose to fill in the huge gaps with our own opinions, subjective or otherwise.

Actually its not my choice either, its from a contemporary quote. Ill see if I can rummage around for it.

[caz]

On these items in the fire bit, only 2 items were found in a partially burned state, there is no evidence that anything else was identified or indicated as burned. Your once again suggesting what could be instead of following what was. As I indicated before....neatly is subjective.

'Neatly' is indeed subjective, Michael, but it was your word, not mine. If you can find a 19th century source for it, then fine. We can both use it in future.

I'm quite happy to follow the known facts, but we both choose to fill in the huge gaps with our own opinions, subjective or otherwise.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi,
There is a possibility that the fire was just for heat started by either Kelly or the Killer, after all Novembers were very cold back then.
It does seem likely they were someone's clothes, but not necessarily.
I'm sure I read somewhere, that most poor people back then only owned one outfit, and they wore that for almost life.

Regards.

If you review what Kate had on her you would have to see that most of these women had everything they owned on them. There was no place to leave it safely..unless of course you have a friend in the lodging house you could trust with your velvet while you were gone, or your own room. The fire was out when Ellizabeth went upstairs, the room remained dark when Mary Ann passes it few more times that night. There was no large fire that night, but there may have been earlier during the day. There is also no evidence that the kettle solder melted that night, its assumed..like so many things.

Ive mentioned that sufficient evidence exists for speculation that the large fire during the day might have been to heat water to wash clothes with Maria. Most of you have skipped happily on past that idea. But let me ask....why else would Maria have her clients laundry with her while visiting Mary? Maria has her own room now. Why does she bring other peoples clothes to room 13?

[spyglass]

Hi,
There is a possibility that the fire was just for heat started by either Kelly or the Killer, after all Novembers were very cold back then.
It does seem likely they were someone's clothes, but not necessarily.
I'm sure I read somewhere, that most poor people back then only owned one outfit, and they wore that for almost life.

Regards.

[DJA]

My Ripper might have been born a left handed high functioning Asperger who copped if from both sides.
His father when home.
His mother when Dad was at sea.
He sought refuge in religion..... and at stages,intoxicants.

[The Rookie Detective]

In "Transactional Analysis", Eric Berne called that a "Don't Make It Script".

Starts early and persistently in life.

Usually by a parent who continually "pulls the rug out from under".

The patient has become uncomfortable when succeeding and pulls the rug out from under himself.

Fascinating insight indeed

the killer likely had a dominant mother due to the nature of the murders.

TRD

[DJA]

from a psychological standpoint this ritual of not completing particular injuries is a way of highlighting his lack of satisfaction in what he was doing. Yes he may have felt satisfied in inflicting punishment, but its almost as though he never quite felt completely satisfied, like he was lost and something was missing.

TRD

In "Transactional Analysis", Eric Berne called that a "Don't Make It Script".

Starts early and persistently in life.

Usually by a parent who continually "pulls the rug out from under".

The patient has become uncomfortable when succeeding and pulls the rug out from under himself.

[DJA]

I'll be your Lurch, if you'll be my Mr Addams!

A lovely friend, who lived opposite, took the Hari Krishna name of Tashikur.

I call her Tash,for short.

My surname is Adams.

[The Rookie Detective]

At least one press description does seem to indicate this could be so;

Echo 10 Nov
"The ears and nose had been cut off, and the flesh cut from one cheek. The flesh had been stripped off leaving the skeleton, the cheeks and forehead of the severed head presenting a most revolting appearance."

I must admit, when I look at her face, or what’s left of it, it does look like her lower jaw is visible.

it’s hard to make out much but just from a quick initial glance that’s what I saw the very first time I looked at the photo.

TRD

[The Rookie Detective]

The comments about Marys injuries suggest she was "almost" decapitated, for that matter so were Polly and Annie.

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head right there Michael.

As you’ve touched on before, there’s a running theme with the injuries inflicted by the ripper; he never quite completed most of his targeted wounds.

there must have been a reason why he chose to do this.

I know there’s an argument that he was disturbed and so some injuries he inflicted were incomplete but I favour that he did this on purpose.

from a psychological standpoint this ritual of not completing particular injuries is a way of highlighting his lack of satisfaction in what he was doing. Yes he may have felt satisfied in inflicting punishment, but its almost as though he never quite felt completely satisfied, like he was lost and something was missing.

For MJK he was searching for satisfaction by attacking her all over her body in a bid to complete, but no matter how hard he tried he couldn’t find it.

or maybe he finally did with MJK hence why some believe she was the last victim.

With MJK he essentially does a bit of everything, from attacking thumb to innards, breasts to thighs, face to uterus etc...

the key is to look for the areas which he attacked consistently over the course of his killing spree.

for me his real target was the uterus

he didn’t just hate prostitutes for what they did, he hated them for what he thought they were and what they represented.

he wasn’t curious about the female form by carrying out some sick experiment, his primary aim was to punish.

punish these women for wasting their lives by not caring for what they had, the ability to produce children.

for me, he had suffered some kind of trauma situated around his mother, wife or sister.

The kind of guy who loses a close female role model, either through childbirth or disease of the uterus. And then he sees these prostitutes with no care in the world for how they sell their bodies.

he was punishing them for being women who didn’t appreciate themselves.

just an opinion obviously.


TRD

[Michael W Richards]

The comments about Marys injuries suggest she was "almost" decapitated, for that matter so were Polly and Annie.