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  • Curious Cat
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    Let's break this range into 3 possibilities.
    1. 1:00 - PC Lamb arrives at the yard before 1am
    2. 1:06 - PC Lamb arrives at ~1:03, just 3 minutes after Diemschitz saw the clock. This is even though the search for police did not start on Commercial Rd. This also places Smith last on Berner St at ~12:38. So Fanny is then conceivably on her doorstep from 12:40 to 12:50.
    3. 1:12 - Smith is last in Berner St at 12:45. Fanny on her doorstep around 12:47-12:57. Smith sees Stride with 'parcel man'. Fanny sees nothing unusual.

    So it would seem that either Diemschitz' 'exactly 1am' has to go, or Schwartz' 12:45 incident has to go.
    PC Smith was last on Berner Street around 0:30am-0:35am.

    Leave a comment:


  • Harry D
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    The uterus too. This helps to make my point...



    So at least one mistake was made.
    The chalked message is owing to the effects of time pressure - it has nothing to do with communicating with the police, or with the Jewish people as a whole.
    If communication with the police was desired, he could just write them or a letter, or send them a postcard.

    The message is not so cryptic when considering the state of the organs and the condition of the apron (smeared with feculent matter).
    However, it is cryptic enough that the organ recipient would get the point, without giving away any clues to the police.
    The police are not meant to make sense of the message.
    No offence but it's all a bit silly, isn't it?

    So, the murderer wasn't harvesting organs for his own sick fetish, he was doing it for a client?

    And he left a small, ambiguously-written message scrawled in chalk to explain his rushjob?
    He couldn't have waited until the next day? Or perhaps written something a little less cryptic?
    You're only supposing the client would correctly interpret the graffito because it suits your theory.

    How exactly were Lawende & co. responsible for the time-pressure in Mitre Square? It's not like there was anything out of the ordinary going on or they had interrupted the killer or arrived on the scene after the murder.

    Leave a comment:


  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Curious Cat View Post

    PC Smith arrives at Dutfield's Yard any time between 1am 1:12am.
    Let's break this range into 3 possibilities.
    1. 1:00 - PC Lamb arrives at the yard before 1am
    2. 1:06 - PC Lamb arrives at ~1:03, just 3 minutes after Diemschitz saw the clock. This is even though the search for police did not start on Commercial Rd. This also places Smith last on Berner St at ~12:38. So Fanny is then conceivably on her doorstep from 12:40 to 12:50.
    3. 1:12 - Smith is last in Berner St at 12:45. Fanny on her doorstep around 12:47-12:57. Smith sees Stride with 'parcel man'. Fanny sees nothing unusual.

    So it would seem that either Diemschitz' 'exactly 1am' has to go, or Schwartz' 12:45 incident has to go.

    Leave a comment:


  • Curious Cat
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    Time is not the only parameter we have to go by.
    Let's have a look at the build-up of people in the yard...

    Abraham Heshburg: I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter. In the gateway, two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short, dark young woman lying on the ground, with a gash between four and five inches long in her throat.

    Edward Spooner: I saw a woman lying just inside the gate. At that time there were about 15 people in the yard, and they were all standing round the body.

    Coroner: How many people were there in the yard?
    Lamb: I should think 20 or 30. Some of that number had followed me in.


    Now Heshburg implies that he was not the first non-club member on the scene...

    The body was not found by Koster, but by a man whose name who a do not know - a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway, where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctors had been sent for.

    So apparently Heshburg knows Koster by name, whereas he knows of Diemschitz, but not by name.
    So how many people were in the yard when Koster goes there? One?...

    About five minutes to one o'clock this morning a youth about twenty years of age named Joseph Koster was accosted by a little boy who came running up to him as he was passing on the opposite side of 40 Berner street ... and told him that a woman was lying in the gateway next to the club, with her throat cut. Koster immediately ran across the road and saw a woman lying on her side in the gateway ...

    Where could this 'little boy' have emerged from, just as Koster happened to be passing by on the opposite side of Berner St?
    This must have been so close to the time of the murder, that I'm surprised no one ever seems to have considered Joseph Koster a suspect.
    So this one witness knocks about 15 minutes off the times independently given by 7 other witnesses, one of which has their watch on them? Is a doctor really likely to have his own watch out by a full 15 minutes?

    Leave a comment:


  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Curious Cat View Post

    Hoshberg's existence makes no difference to my point.

    Unless you know where he's taking his time from he adds absolutely nothing to your argument.
    Time is not the only parameter we have to go by.
    Let's have a look at the build-up of people in the yard...

    Abraham Heshburg: I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter. In the gateway, two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short, dark young woman lying on the ground, with a gash between four and five inches long in her throat.

    Edward Spooner: I saw a woman lying just inside the gate. At that time there were about 15 people in the yard, and they were all standing round the body.

    Coroner: How many people were there in the yard?
    Lamb: I should think 20 or 30. Some of that number had followed me in.


    Now Heshburg implies that he was not the first non-club member on the scene...

    The body was not found by Koster, but by a man whose name who a do not know - a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway, where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctors had been sent for.

    So apparently Heshburg knows Koster by name, whereas he knows of Diemschitz, but not by name.
    So how many people were in the yard when Koster goes there? One?...

    About five minutes to one o'clock this morning a youth about twenty years of age named Joseph Koster was accosted by a little boy who came running up to him as he was passing on the opposite side of 40 Berner street ... and told him that a woman was lying in the gateway next to the club, with her throat cut. Koster immediately ran across the road and saw a woman lying on her side in the gateway ...

    Where could this 'little boy' have emerged from, just as Koster happened to be passing by on the opposite side of Berner St?
    This must have been so close to the time of the murder, that I'm surprised no one ever seems to have considered Joseph Koster a suspect.

    Leave a comment:


  • Curious Cat
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    I take this to mean Spooner arrives at #40 at about 1:03.
    So let's get a sense of the passage of time from that point...

    Spooner: I saw a woman lying just inside the gate. At that time there were about 15 people in the yard, and they were all standing round the body. The majority of them appeared to be Jews. No one touched the body. One of them struck a match, and I lifted up the chin of the deceased with my hand. The chin was slightly warm. Blood was still flowing from the throat. I could see that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand, and a red and white flower pinned on to her jacket. The body was lying on one side, with the face turned towards the wall. I noticed that blood was running down the gutter. I stood there about five minutes before a constable came. It was the last witness who first arrived.

    So what is the time when the last witness (Henry Lamb) arrives?
    It must be getting close to 1:10.
    So now what time does PC Smith arrive?
    It must have been ~1:09 + the ~120 seconds to beat pace walk from Commercial Rd to 40 Berner + a little extra to avoid hearing or seeing the other PCs or club members...

    Smith: I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. I did not hear any cries of "Police."

    So the time is now about 1:12.
    What does Smith say he does on arrival?

    Smith: When I got there I saw constables 12 H R and 252 H. I then saw the deceased, and, on looking at her, found she was dead. I then went to the station for the ambulance. Dr. Blackwell's assistant came just as I was going away.

    However, he also says this in relation to his previous transit through Berner St...

    Coroner: When you were in Berner-street the previous time did you see any one? - Yes, a man and a woman.
    Inspector Reid. - Did you see these people more than once? - No. When I saw deceased lying on the ground I recognized her at once and made a report of what I had seen.


    So Smith apparently arrived at 1:12, made a report of what he had seen, and then went for the ambulance.
    So what time are we at now?
    Given that Blackwell's assistant Johnston supposedly arrives at 1:12, we would appear to have a time anomaly.

    Two anomalies actually.
    When was Smith last on Berner St?

    Smith: It takes me from 25 minutes to half an hour to go round my beat.

    So Smith's beat takes 27 minutes, with a 2 minute margin of error.

    27 minutes prior to 1:12 is 12:45.
    What supposedly happens on Berner St at that time?
    PC Smith arrives at Dutfield's Yard any time between 1am 1:12am. We have no point of reference apart from him saying he's at the corner of Berner Street at 1am and leaves for an ambulance as Johnson arrives, which would have been about 1:12am. PC Smith says he was last in Berner Street 0:30am-0:35am. 27 minutes falls in between for him to reach the corner of Berner Street again at 1am. Or it may have been about 30 minutes starting from 0:35 so it could be he was on the corner at 1:05am, hence him missing seeing PC Lamb being called for and going down Berner Street ahead of him.

    PC Smith isn't in Berner Street at or around 0:45 so cannot witness anything going on there at that time.

    Leave a comment:


  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    a) Someones clock must have been wrong...(but whom you choose to believe was the right time)
    b) None of the clocks matched others
    In that case, how can one witness's claim to have seen a clock at a certain time, trump all other time estimates?

    Leave a comment:


  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Curious Cat View Post

    The 3 minutes margin-of-error before 1am is for Diemschutz, the 3 minutes margin-of-error after 1am is for Spooner.
    I take this to mean Spooner arrives at #40 at about 1:03.
    So let's get a sense of the passage of time from that point...

    Spooner: I saw a woman lying just inside the gate. At that time there were about 15 people in the yard, and they were all standing round the body. The majority of them appeared to be Jews. No one touched the body. One of them struck a match, and I lifted up the chin of the deceased with my hand. The chin was slightly warm. Blood was still flowing from the throat. I could see that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand, and a red and white flower pinned on to her jacket. The body was lying on one side, with the face turned towards the wall. I noticed that blood was running down the gutter. I stood there about five minutes before a constable came. It was the last witness who first arrived.

    So what is the time when the last witness (Henry Lamb) arrives?
    It must be getting close to 1:10.
    So now what time does PC Smith arrive?
    It must have been ~1:09 + the ~120 seconds to beat pace walk from Commercial Rd to 40 Berner + a little extra to avoid hearing or seeing the other PCs or club members...

    Smith: I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. I did not hear any cries of "Police."

    So the time is now about 1:12.
    What does Smith say he does on arrival?

    Smith: When I got there I saw constables 12 H R and 252 H. I then saw the deceased, and, on looking at her, found she was dead. I then went to the station for the ambulance. Dr. Blackwell's assistant came just as I was going away.

    However, he also says this in relation to his previous transit through Berner St...

    Coroner: When you were in Berner-street the previous time did you see any one? - Yes, a man and a woman.
    Inspector Reid. - Did you see these people more than once? - No. When I saw deceased lying on the ground I recognized her at once and made a report of what I had seen.


    So Smith apparently arrived at 1:12, made a report of what he had seen, and then went for the ambulance.
    So what time are we at now?
    Given that Blackwell's assistant Johnston supposedly arrives at 1:12, we would appear to have a time anomaly.

    Two anomalies actually.
    When was Smith last on Berner St?

    Smith: It takes me from 25 minutes to half an hour to go round my beat.

    So Smith's beat takes 27 minutes, with a 2 minute margin of error.

    27 minutes prior to 1:12 is 12:45.
    What supposedly happens on Berner St at that time?

    Leave a comment:


  • Curious Cat
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    All I can say is that Gillen, Heschberg, and Issac Kozebrodski came from inside the club, which would of course have a had a visible clock...although who knows whether it had the time that street clocks showed....and Fanny Mortimer came from within her house, which certainly had a clock. Louis didnt, Morris didnt, Lave didnt, nor did Israel.

    So the counter arguments are;

    a) Someones clock must have been wrong...(but whom you choose to believe was the right time)
    b) None of the clocks matched others
    c) All the witnesses that give a specific range of time they were by the body were wrong, despite having access to clocks, because Louis was the only one to believe because he said he saw a clock on his way home.
    d) Spooner was wrong on his timing by half an hour
    e) Fanny Mortimer was inside when Eagle returns, inside when Israel, Liz, Pipeman and BSM were on the street, and she must have heard Louis arriving after 1

    As far as Im concerned you can believe whatever makes you comfortable, and whomever you deem as trustworthy. I really dont care what anyone believes about any of these murders, I just care when the facts in these cases are misrepresented and things that are assumed are called facts.
    How are those quotes and sources coming along?

    Leave a comment:


  • Curious Cat
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    Would you prefer if Hoshberg didn't exist?
    It would certainly make things easier for you.
    Hoshberg's existence makes no difference to my point.

    Unless you know where he's taking his time from he adds absolutely nothing to your argument.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Originally posted by Curious Cat View Post

    The 3 minutes margin-of-error before 1am is for Diemschutz, the 3 minutes margin-of-error after 1am is for Spooner. The range therefore is 6 minutes within which all of what Diemschutz says happens from arriving at Dutfield's Yard to Spooner arriving at Dutfield's Yard. Diemschutz is going by the time of a clock we are unable to check is in synch with Dr Blackwell's watch, Spooner is estimating the time period he began standing outside the Beehive and estimating how long he was stood there before Diemschutz came along. Spooner estimates the time PC Lamb arrived and PC Lamb estimates the time Dr Blackwell arrived. Dr Blackwell checks his own time piece when he arrives and it says 1:16am.

    None of them are going by the same time piece so their estimates are measured between the clock Diemschutz sees? and Dr Blackwell's watch. The margin-of-error you could push to maybe 5 minutes if you wish. However, if you take Diemschutz time back 15 minutes, then Spooner is out by 15 minutes, then PC Lamb is out by 15 minutes when he meets Eagle on Commercial Road and then Dr Blackwell's watch is out by 15 minutes when he arrives at Dutfield's Yard. PC Smith would then have to arrive 15 minutes before he reaches the corner of Berner Street when he says he was that at about 1am.

    Surely more logical then that Diemschutz arrives just before 1am while believing it to be exactly 1am, that Spooner saw him in Fairclough Street at about 1am and returned to Dutfield's Yard with him within a couple of minutes of 1am, that PC Lamb arrived a few minutes later and that Dr Blackwell arrived about 10 minutes later at the time his watch indicated.


    What was Abraham Hoshberg using to tell the time?
    All I can say is that Gillen, Heschberg, and Issac Kozebrodski came from inside the club, which would of course have a had a visible clock...although who knows whether it had the time that street clocks showed....and Fanny Mortimer came from within her house, which certainly had a clock. Louis didnt, Morris didnt, Lave didnt, nor did Israel.

    So the counter arguments are;

    a) Someones clock must have been wrong...(but whom you choose to believe was the right time)
    b) None of the clocks matched others
    c) All the witnesses that give a specific range of time they were by the body were wrong, despite having access to clocks, because Louis was the only one to believe because he said he saw a clock on his way home.
    d) Spooner was wrong on his timing by half an hour
    e) Fanny Mortimer was inside when Eagle returns, inside when Israel, Liz, Pipeman and BSM were on the street, and she must have heard Louis arriving after 1

    As far as Im concerned you can believe whatever makes you comfortable, and whomever you deem as trustworthy. I really dont care what anyone believes about any of these murders, I just care when the facts in these cases are misrepresented and things that are assumed are called facts.

    Leave a comment:


  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Curious Cat View Post

    What was Abraham Hoshberg using to tell the time?
    Would you prefer if Hoshberg didn't exist?
    It would certainly make things easier for you.

    Leave a comment:


  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Re #406

    That is a recitation of what she said, its not a quote.

    Obviously.

    She said herself that she was at the door from 12:50 until 1am, and that she want in after that.

    Please provide the supporting quote for this claim.

    It was when she was going to be she heard the cart and horse. So...as I said...she may have heard Kozebroskis boots, and after 1, a cart and horse leaving.

    So from #36, Mortimer heard the 'measured, heavy tramp' of Kozebrodsky running from #40 toward Grove St?

    You go on to suggest that Diemschitz' 'precisely 1' is not debatable.
    Diemschitz also says he was arriving then, not leaving the yard, so by the same logic that point is not debatable either.
    Therefore your claim that Mortimer actually actually heard the pony and cart leaving, cannot be maintained.
    You might also recall that Diemschitz claimed to discover Stride in the driveway, on his arrival, so presumably this is not debatable either.
    So then what becomes of your oft-repeated claim that men are with Stride's body prior to 12:45?
    You're obviously picking and choosing 'facts' to fit a pre-determined outcome.

    So really it's - (back) outside from 12:45-55 - lock door at 12:56 - hear pony & cart at 1am.

    As stated above, thats not what she said so its your timeline, not hers.


    It's a timeline based on summarising the report. it's not my timeline - it's the reporter's.

    I got back this Sunday morning about one o'clock, and drove up to our club-room gate in my pony cart.

    Diemshitz from the Inquest..."I reside at No. 40 Berner-street, and am steward of the International Workmen's Club. I am married, and my wife lives at the club too, and assists in the management. On Saturday I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street".

    Im pretty surprised that you tried to pretend he arrived "about" 1. He said "precisely" 1. Its not debatable.


    I'm quoting what Diemschitz said to the press, Oct1, the day before his inquest appearance.
    Does it bother you that Diemschitz sharpens-up his estimate from 'about 1' to 'exactly 1'?

    12:45 + 10 + 1 + 4 = 1am

    Fake news or bad math based on the actual evidence, so take your pick.


    I triple-checked the math, so it must be fake news.

    The report stitches things together, to make a coherent whole... and it so happened that in about four minutes' time ... is a visible stitch.

    Addressed that.


    "Addressed"

    If you disagree with that, ask yourself why, if ... A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement ... we don't get any quotes from that statement. If it's an important statement, why not print it?

    The press did print her words. You just havent come across it yet.


    Unlike you, I did quote Mortimer - in my last reply to you.
    I reckon it's your turn now. Let's see the quote that mentions 12:50-1:00 ...

    A better question is why she isnt at the Inquest, when its obvious her statement has great bearing on the events and times bewteen 12:30 and 1.

    A reasonable question.

    I think you're turning the pony & cart around, out of necessity, not evidence.

    No, thats not it, Im addressing the basic fact that Fanny heard the cart and horse after 1, and that she didnt see or hear one arrive before then. And definitely not at "precisely" 1. I dont see the facts as "necessary", they are what they are.


    PC Smith stated at the inquest that he could see, from Commercial Rd, a crowd gathered outside #40 Berner, at 1am.
    What time was it really, Michael?

    If a bunch of people are alongside Stride in the 12:40-45 period, Louis cannot possibly arrive to discover her at 1am - that would be true of course.
    However, you insist that Fanny was mostly outside from 12:30-1:00, therefore you have little choice but to reverse the direction of the cart.


    Again, the facts are what they are...she saw or heard no cart arrive before or at 1, and she only heard a cart and horse after 1. You can decide for yourself whether hearing a cart while getting into be would be instantly recognizable by direction.


    Once again, please quote Fanny Mortimer stating, or at least implying that she heard pony & cart go by after 1am.
    If you can't, you're not dealing with facts, you're simply making assertions.

    Did she really miss Eagle and Lave?...

    Did she mention them? Do we have anyone that corroborates them, by the way?


    It is not up to Fanny to recall every coming and going from the club over that half hour period.
    She said she saw nothing unusual - that is compatible with Eagle and Lave arriving at the club, but Fanny not making reference to it.

    I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. What is unusual about Eagle and Lave entering the club from the street?

    I see you assume because she didnt see them that she actually did and just referred to 2 people as "nothing unusual"...when asked what she saw and who she saw specifically? Is that supposed to be a viable counter to my point?


    Asked? By who? What was the question?
    Fanny made a statement. In that statement she said she saw nothing unusual.
    That does not mean she saw nothing, nor does it mean she did see any particular individual.
    It's pretty simple English.

    Keeping in mind that Smith went by at about 12:35, what time do you suppose the murder occurred?

    Well, Smith saw her standing at 12:35 and she has a bunch of people standing around her body at 12:40-12:45 in the passageway...so in between then Id imagine


    You said Fanny was inside from 12:40 to 12:45.
    Was she inside when Smith went by at 12:35?
    Was she also inside between 12:35 and 12:40, when you suggest the murder occurred?
    If yes to both, then Fanny was inside (by your reckoning), from 12:35 or earlier, through to 12:45.
    That's a timespan of at least 11 minutes, yet you also believe Fanny was on her doorstep for nearly all of the period 12:30-1:00.
    When was Fanny on her doorstep, Michael?

    Leave a comment:


  • Curious Cat
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    No, it does not do that at all.
    You're confusing a margin-of-error with a timespan.
    If Diemschitz arrival time of 1am has a margin-of-error of 3 minutes, then he actually arrived anywhere from 12:57-1:03.
    That much is true (by definition). However, that does not give him 6 minutes to play with - it gives him zero time to play with.
    One cannot do stuff within a margin-of-error.



    Actually, he's with his assistant by 1:16, as I explained earlier.



    Four minutes each way is not correct, I believe. More like 1 minute to run, 2 to walk.

    I presume you're aware that Blackwell was actually asleep in bed when the PC arrived?
    Johnston answered the door...

    I live at 100, Commercial-road, and am assistant to Drs. Kay and Blackwell. About five or ten minutes past 1 on Sunday morning, I received a call from constable 436 H. After informing Dr. Blackwell, who was in bed, of the nature of the case, I accompanied the constable to Berner-street.



    At least 5, maybe 7, as I explained earlier.
    Actually, when I first came across Spooner's "25 minutes to 1", I thought he might have been mis-heard, and actually said "7 to 5 minutes to 1" (12:53-55).

    So now you need to account for Abraham Hoshberg, who we hear from, and Joseph Koster, who we do not hear from...

    [IT1001] About five minutes to one o'clock this morning a youth about twenty years of age named Joseph Koster was accosted by a little boy who came running up to him as he was passing on the opposite side of 40 Berner street, used by the International Socialist Club, and told him that a woman was lying in the gateway next to the club, with her throat cut. Koster immediately ran across the road and saw a woman lying on her sidein the gateway leading into Dutfield's stabling and van premises.
    The 3 minutes margin-of-error before 1am is for Diemschutz, the 3 minutes margin-of-error after 1am is for Spooner. The range therefore is 6 minutes within which all of what Diemschutz says happens from arriving at Dutfield's Yard to Spooner arriving at Dutfield's Yard. Diemschutz is going by the time of a clock we are unable to check is in synch with Dr Blackwell's watch, Spooner is estimating the time period he began standing outside the Beehive and estimating how long he was stood there before Diemschutz came along. Spooner estimates the time PC Lamb arrived and PC Lamb estimates the time Dr Blackwell arrived. Dr Blackwell checks his own time piece when he arrives and it says 1:16am.

    None of them are going by the same time piece so their estimates are measured between the clock Diemschutz sees and Dr Blackwell's watch. The margin-of-error you could push to maybe 5 minutes if you wish. However, if you take Diemschutz time back 15 minutes, then Spooner is out by 15 minutes, then PC Lamb is out by 15 minutes when he meets Eagle on Commercial Road and then Dr Blackwell's watch is out by 15 minutes when he arrives at Dutfield's Yard. PC Smith would then have to arrive 15 minutes before he reaches the corner of Berner Street when he says he was that at about 1am.

    Surely more logical then that Diemschutz arrives just before 1am while believing it to be exactly 1am, that Spooner saw him in Fairclough Street at about 1am and returned to Dutfield's Yard with him within a couple of minutes of 1am, that PC Lamb arrived a few minutes later and that Dr Blackwell arrived about 10 minutes later at the time his watch indicated.


    What was Abraham Hoshberg using to tell the time?

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    Your 'we know' claims are based on this report.

    LEN1001:

    A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

    That is a recitation of what she said, its not a quote. She said herself that she was at the door from 12:50 until 1am, and that she want in after that. It was when she was going to be she heard the cart and horse. So...as I said...she may have heard Kozebroskis boots, and after 1, a cart and horse leaving.

    So really it's - (back) outside from 12:45-55 - lock door at 12:56 - hear pony & cart at 1am.

    As stated above, thats not what she said so its your timeline, not hers.

    Btw, do you really think Fanny ever said (paraphrasing) - I heard the steward's pony cart pass my house, four minutes after I locked the door for the night.

    No, she just said it was when she was going to bed. After 1am.

    Of course she wasn't that exact - the 4 minutes is the journalist making her story fit with Louis' statement in the same edition...

    No problem with that, just with your estimates on what happened when.

    I got back this Sunday morning about one o'clock, and drove up to our club-room gate in my pony cart.

    Diemshitz from the Inquest..."I reside at No. 40 Berner-street, and am steward of the International Workmen's Club. I am married, and my wife lives at the club too, and assists in the management. On Saturday I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street".

    Im pretty surprised that you tried to pretend he arrived "about" 1. He said "precisely" 1. Its not debatable.

    12:45 + 10 + 1 + 4 = 1am

    Fake news or bad math based on the actual evidence, so take your pick.


    The report stitches things together, to make a coherent whole... and it so happened that in about four minutes' time ... is a visible stitch.

    Addressed that.

    If you disagree with that, ask yourself why, if ... A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement ... we don't get any quotes from that statement. If it's an important statement, why not print it?

    The press did print her words. You just havent come across it yet. A better question is why she isnt at the Inquest, when its obvious her statement has great bearing on the events and times bewteen 12:30 and 1.

    I think you're turning the pony & cart around, out of necessity, not evidence.

    No, thats not it, Im addressing the basic fact that Fanny heard the cart and horse after 1, and that she didnt see or hear one arrive before then. And definitely not at "precisely" 1. I dont see the facts as "necessary", they are what they are.


    If a bunch of people are alongside Stride in the 12:40-45 period, Louis cannot possibly arrive to discover her at 1am - that would be true of course.
    However, you insist that Fanny was mostly outside from 12:30-1:00, therefore you have little choice but to reverse the direction of the cart.


    Again, the facts are what they are...she saw or heard no cart arrive before or at 1, and she only heard a cart and horse after 1. You can decide for yourself whether hearing a cart while getting into be would be instantly recognizable by direction.

    Did she really miss Eagle and Lave?...

    Did she mention them? Do we have anyone that corroborates them, by the way?

    I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. What is unusual about Eagle and Lave entering the club from the street?

    I see you assume because she didnt see them that she actually did and just referred to 2 people as "nothing unusual"...when asked what she saw and who she saw specifically? Is that supposed to be a viable counter to my point?

    Keeping in mind that Smith went by at about 12:35, what time do you suppose the murder occurred?

    Well, Smith saw her standing at 12:35 and she has a bunch of people standing around her body at 12:40-12:45 in the passageway...so in between then Id imagine
    Just a little footnote about constructing your beliefs on what club staff or grounds residents said..not one of them has any second party substantiation for anything they said. Not the times, not the actions. So....did Louis actually arrive at precisely 1? Provably not. Did Louis discover the body when he arrived....who really knows. Did Eagle arrive back at 12:40, and pass Lave at the gates? Who knows. They apparently didnt even see each other though both claim to be at the same place at the same time. Was Stride already there when Eagle says he went into the passageway, if he arrived at 12:40 like he said....even he didnt know.

    Stop using the only accounts that cannot be matched or verified and use the ones that can be matched and verified with each other. I suggest the men with the most to lose by suspicions being cast upon the club lied, logical, reasonable and by their reputation with the police at that time, perhaps even understandable....yet youd think Id suggested Bigfoot was the killer by the tripe I get back.

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