The apron was dropped...

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Allowing for 2-3 minutes either side of 1am - as we cannot be sure the clock Diemshutz was going by was in synch with Dr Blackwell's watch and we don't know the time it took between him seeing that clock and arriving at Dutfield's Yard - then that gives a 6 minute range of 0:57am-1:03am for Diemschutz to arrive, go for help and for Spooner to return with him.

No, it does not do that at all.
You're confusing a margin-of-error with a timespan.
If Diemschitz arrival time of 1am has a margin-of-error of 3 minutes, then he actually arrived anywhere from 12:57-1:03.
That much is true (by definition). However, that does not give him 6 minutes to play with - it gives him zero time to play with.
One cannot do stuff within a margin-of-error.

Dr Blackwell also says that the call to come to Berner Street came at 1:10am. He's at Dutfield's Yard by 1:16.

Actually, he's with his assistant by 1:16, as I explained earlier.

Say it took him a couple of minutes to get dressed then he left his residence at Commercial Road at 1:12am. That's four minutes to reach Dutfield's Yard. The constable who went to fetch Dr Blackwell was sent by PC Lamb very shortly after arriving at Dutfield's Yard. Deduct four minutes from 1:10am and you get 1:06am.That will be about the time PC Lamb sent the constable he arrived with to go get Dr Blackwell. This in turn gives us a time for PC Lamb's arrival as being 1:04am-1:05am or there abouts.

Four minutes each way is not correct, I believe. More like 1 minute to run, 2 to walk.

I presume you're aware that Blackwell was actually asleep in bed when the PC arrived?
Johnston answered the door...

I live at 100, Commercial-road, and am assistant to Drs. Kay and Blackwell. About five or ten minutes past 1 on Sunday morning, I received a call from constable 436 H. After informing Dr. Blackwell, who was in bed, of the nature of the case, I accompanied the constable to Berner-street.

Spooner reckons PC Lamb arrived about 4 minutes after him, so Spooner arrived at Dutfield's Yard about 1am-1:02am.

At least 5, maybe 7, as I explained earlier.
Actually, when I first came across Spooner's "25 minutes to 1", I thought he might have been mis-heard, and actually said "7 to 5 minutes to 1" (12:53-55).

So now you need to account for Abraham Hoshberg, who we hear from, and Joseph Koster, who we do not hear from...

[IT1001] About five minutes to one o'clock this morning a youth about twenty years of age named Joseph Koster was accosted by a little boy who came running up to him as he was passing on the opposite side of 40 Berner street, used by the International Socialist Club, and told him that a woman was lying in the gateway next to the club, with her throat cut. Koster immediately ran across the road and saw a woman lying on her sidein the gateway leading into Dutfield's stabling and van premises.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

We know she heard a cart and horse after 1, about 4 minutes after she went to bed after locking up at 1am. And we know she came to her door around 12:50 for the last 10 minutes of the hour.

Your 'we know' claims are based on this report.

LEN1001:

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

So really it's - (back) outside from 12:45-55 - lock door at 12:56 - hear pony & cart at 1am.

Btw, do you really think Fanny ever said (paraphrasing) - I heard the steward's pony cart pass my house, four minutes after I locked the door for the night.

Of course she wasn't that exact - the 4 minutes is the journalist making her story fit with Louis' statement in the same edition...

I got back this Sunday morning about one o'clock, and drove up to our club-room gate in my pony cart.

12:45 + 10 + 1 + 4 = 1am

The report stitches things together, to make a coherent whole... and it so happened that in about four minutes' time ... is a visible stitch.

If you disagree with that, ask yourself why, if ... A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement ... we don't get any quotes from that statement. If it's an important statement, why not print it?

She said she heard some boots just before she came to the door. Note that she didnt see the source of either sound, and its my belief that she may have heard the cart and horse leaving, not arriving. I dont recall hearing exactly what happened to those after Louis finds the woman and some people gather.

I think you're turning the pony & cart around, out of necessity, not evidence.
If a bunch of people are alongside Stride in the 12:40-45 period, Louis cannot possibly arrive to discover her at 1am - that would be true of course.
However, you insist that Fanny was mostly outside from 12:30-1:00, therefore you have little choice but to reverse the direction of the cart.

By the statements she missed Eagles return, Lave standing at the entrance to the street, all of Israels story and characters, Louis's arrival, the cart and horse leaving...very possible that she wasnt standing there when those things were claimed to have happened. But she didnt hear anything of Israels story, nor did she hear a cart and horse until she had gone to bed after 1am.

Did she really miss Eagle and Lave?...

I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual.

What is unusual about Eagle and Lave entering the club from the street?

We know that Louis cannot have arrived after 1am because we have credible police witnesses whose storylines begin around that time. He cant arrive and go to find a policeman at the same time. Yes, I believe he went himself for help after 1...which means it wasnt him who saw Spooner and vice versa, I also believe its possible he left with a member whose surname was Issacs. But when he arrived is the crux. I believe he arrived at 12:40, 12:45 when Fanny was inside...

Keeping in mind that Smith went by at about 12:35, what time do you suppose the murder occurred?

[Curious Cat]

It is very difficult to reconcile Diemschitz' claimed 1am arrival time, with other witness accounts, without creating logical impossibilities.

Daily Telegraph reporting on the inquest:


Diemschutz: I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could. A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased.

Spooner: They ran as far as Grove- street, and then turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter, and they replied that a woman had been murdered. I thereupon proceeded down Berner-street and into Dutfield's-yard...I put my hand under her chin when the match was alight.


If you can't connect those two pieces of information then that's your problem, not mine.


Allowing for 2-3 minutes either side of 1am - as we cannot be sure the clock Diemshutz was going by was in synch with Dr Blackwell's watch and we don't know the time it took between him seeing that clock and arriving at Dutfield's Yard - then that gives a 6 minute range of 0:57am-1:03am for Diemschutz to arrive, go for help and for Spooner to return with him. It's also within range for Eagle to go to Commercial Street to get PC Lamb. This is all around the 1am mark. PC Lamb's arrival is around 1:05am - give or take a couple of minutes.

Dr Blackwell also says that the call to come to Berner Street came at 1:10am. He's at Dutfield's Yard by 1:16. Say it took him a couple of minutes to get dressed then he left his residence at Commercial Road at 1:12am. That's four minutes to reach Dutfield's Yard. The constable who went to fetch Dr Blackwell was sent by PC Lamb very shortly after arriving at Dutfield's Yard. Deduct four minutes from 1:10am and you get 1:06am. That will be about the time PC Lamb sent the constable he arrived with to go get Dr Blackwell. This in turn gives us a time for PC Lamb's arrival as being 1:04am-1:05am or there abouts. Spooner reckons PC Lamb arrived about 4 minutes after him, so Spooner arrived at Dutfield's Yard about 1am-1:02am. The 3-4 minutes preceding 1am is enough time for Diemschutz to arrive, find the body and inform those in the club. The two minutes from 1am is enough time for Diemschutz to reach Grove Street, cross paths with Spooner and for them to return to Dutfield's Yard together.

[Michael W Richards]

We've all got other things going on and I didn't say you had to do it straight away.

The point is, this is your contention. It isn't up to the rest of us to pick over the different bits of information you've used to reach your conclusions when we don't know which bits you've used and which bits you've discarded. The reason you are struggling to find consensus for your argument is because you refuse to present it properly. You only put out the quotes that appear to back up your idea but never in context or with sources. You then suggest the rest of us are stupid for not seeing what you see. How can we do that if you do not present your argument clearly?

You believe a club attendee killed Elizabeth Stride. Then present all the quotes and all their sources that bring you to that conclusion. Take as much time as you need.

I understand you need something more linear, so Ill work on that for you. If nothing else Id like to be a part of Stride removal from a Canonical Group..if that is even possible now.

[Michael W Richards]

Or perhaps Fanny just missed seeing the pony and cart arrive, by seconds...



You say Fanny most likely has a clock in her home.
That seems reasonable enough, but was she actually cognizant of the clock time, in the half hour leading up to 1am, Sep 30th?
She's outside for most of that time, apparently.
The remainder might have be spent checking on husband and children.
Does she need to know the time, like PCs Lamb and Smith do? I don't think so.
Later that day, Fanny is telling the press that the deceased was found to have grapes in her hand, but doesn't say she saw them herself.
So where does she get that information from?
The answer is; from the same person who gives her the idea that she was outside until 1am - her neighbour Louis Diemschitz.

We know she heard a cart and horse after 1, about 4 minutes after she went to bed after locking up at 1am. And we know she came to her door around 12:50 for the last 10 minutes of the hour. She said she heard some boots just before she came to the door. Note that she didnt see the source of either sound, and its my belief that she may have heard the cart and horse leaving, not arriving. I dont recall hearing exactly what happened to those after Louis finds the woman and some people gather.

Fanny states that she was at her door.."nearly the whole time", yet people surmise that means only the last 10 minutes when it was continuous. It means that the majority of the minutes during the period between 12:30 and 1am she had a view of the street. Now, assuming she missed certain things is realistic, assuming she missed every event that was claimed to have happened isnt. By the statements she missed Eagles return, Lave standing at the entrance to the street, all of Israels story and characters, Louis's arrival, the cart and horse leaving...very possible that she wasnt standing there when those things were claimed to have happened. But she didnt hear anything of Israels story, nor did she hear a cart and horse until she had gone to bed after 1am. We know that Louis cannot have arrived after 1am because we have credible police witnesses whose storylines begin around that time. He cant arrive and go to find a policeman at the same time. Yes, I believe he went himself for help after 1...which means it wasnt him who saw Spooner and vice versa, I also believe its possible he left with a member whose surname was Issacs. But when he arrived is the crux. I believe he arrived at 12:40, 12:45 when Fanny was inside...that Fanny likely heard the boots of Issac K going for help alone just before 12:50,or perhaps another party that meets Spooner on the way back..that Leon Goldstein saw members gathered around the body and was shooed off..and that after 1am, Louis and Eagle went for help too. I think thats when someone took the horse and cart to George Yard. The sound Fanny hears.

Leon Goldstein has a bag full of empty cigarette cartons, there are cigarette makers who lived in the passageway that stated they were awake at the time of the murder, might he have been headed into that alley and told to keep moving due to the grave situation at the gate?

If Im correct then we have perjury, failing to provide assistance, and perhaps a few other charges against Louis and the club. It would mean that upon discovery of the body more than 15 minutes elapsed before Louis and Eagle went themselves for help. It would mean that other than the one search party for help that is not mentioned by the club officials...that of Issac K "being sent by Louis or some other member" shortly after 12:40, there may have been at least 1 other...the men that met Spooner.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Spooner reaches Dutfield Yard about 1am.

I've already said before Diemschutz arrival would've been about 1am.

Spooner is the man Diemschutz met when he went to call for the police down Fairclough Street and returned with him to Dutfield's Yard.
Diemschutz is one of the men Spooner saw calling for police in Fairclough Street and returned to Dutfield's Yard with.

It is very difficult to reconcile Diemschitz' claimed 1am arrival time, with other witness accounts, without creating logical impossibilities.

[DJA]

Fanny Mortimer heard a "pony cart" pass by AFTER she went inside.

Kindly take the argument to a suitable thread.

[Observer]

Not quite.

I'm a Queen's Head rather than a Dirty Dick.

Right, errr, sorry about that.

[Curious Cat]

I agree Mr Cat. I got inside the Bricklayers Arms and took some interior photos, it's a grocers now, I'll see if I can find them and post them here. If I remember rightly the original cast iron ceiling supports were still in situ, much like the ones in the Ten Bells. I think I have a shot of the Grave Maurice also.

Not quite.

I'm a Queen's Head rather than a Dirty Dick.

[Observer]

Thanks for the photos, especially of The Beehive. It helps with the visualisation in my mind.

I agree Mr Cat. I got inside the Bricklayers Arms and took some interior photos, it's a grocers now, I'll see if I can find them and post them here. If I remember rightly the original cast iron ceiling supports were still in situ, much like the ones in the Ten Bells. I think I have a shot of the Grave Maurice also.

[DJA]

My pleasure Curious Cat

[Curious Cat]

Curious, Im often at work when I am on here and since all the references to the statements Ive referred to are on this site, perhaps at your leisure you can refer to the Witness files on Issac Kozebrodksi, club member Gillen, Heschberg, Diemshutz, Eagle, Lave, Wess, PC Smith, Fanny Mortimer, James Brown, and of course the star witness, Israel Schwartz.

Its clear once these are compared that ALL the stories without corroboration belong to people directly associated with the club. And all the other attendee or bystander stories have a general time around the body as being between 12:40 and 12:45. With a small crowd already there when they arrive. As was pointed out earlier, at no point in this story does Spooner state who he saw running for help, and in Issac Kozebrodski's statement he suggests at least he was sent out for help around 12:45...something not even mentioned to the police. There may well have been others sent too.

To the point....there is no substantiated story that suggests anyone was on the street near the club from 12:35-40 until 12:55..when Leon strolls past, looking into the passageway. Fanny Mortimer, who almost certainly has a clock in her home, states she was outside viewing the street "nearly the whole time" between 12:30 and 1am, and that she stayed at her door continuously for the last 10 minutes of the half hour. She went in at 1. Had Louis been arriving "precisely" at 1 as he claimed, she would not have been able to miss seeing and hearing him. Perhaps he just chose his words poorly?

The Young Couple, and Leon Goldstein passing by. Thats who was visibly there to Fanny. She says that should someone have come from the club during that time she "surely" would have seen them, is that just a bad choice of words for her too?

Liz was out of sight shortly after PC Smith leaves, Diemshutz arrives, mayhem begins,...all within the confines of the alleyway. A club attendee is by far the most probable killer...and he isnt any kind of Ripper.

We've all got other things going on and I didn't say you had to do it straight away.

The point is, this is your contention. It isn't up to the rest of us to pick over the different bits of information you've used to reach your conclusions when we don't know which bits you've used and which bits you've discarded. The reason you are struggling to find consensus for your argument is because you refuse to present it properly. You only put out the quotes that appear to back up your idea but never in context or with sources. You then suggest the rest of us are stupid for not seeing what you see. How can we do that if you do not present your argument clearly?

You believe a club attendee killed Elizabeth Stride. Then present all the quotes and all their sources that bring you to that conclusion. Take as much time as you need.

[Curious Cat]

Curious Cat was asking questions about localities,so I reckoned the 'photos would be good.

Love old pubs.

Grave Maurice is now a betting shop/fish shop.

New computer. Just downloaded the new Google Earth.

Thanks for the photos, especially of The Beehive. It helps with the visualisation in my mind.

[Curious Cat]

Did Koster and Heshburg arrive before 1am?
You claim Spooner arrives at ~1am.
So what time did Diemschitz arrive?
Is that question also neither here nor there?



This is Spooner quoted in the Times Oct3:

Between half-past 12 and 1 o'clock on Sunday morning I was standing outside the Bee Hive publichouse, at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street, along with a young woman. I had previously been in another beershop at the top of the street, and afterwards walked down. After talking for about 25 minutes I saw two Jews come running along and shouting out "Murder" and "Police." They then ran as far as Grove-street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They replied, "A woman has been murdered." I then went round with them to Berner-street, and into Dutfield's yard, adjoining No. 40, Berner-street. I saw a woman lying just inside the gate. At that time there were about 15 people in the yard, and they were all standing round the body. The majority of them appeared to be Jews. No one touched the body. One of them struck a match, and I lifted up the chin of the deceased with my hand. The chin was slightly warm. Blood was still flowing from the throat. I could see that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand, and a red and white flower pinned on to her jacket. The body was lying on one side, with the face turned towards the wall. I noticed that blood was running down the gutter. I stood there about five minutes before a constable came.

So Spooner saw "two Jew come running along". How do you know one of them was Diemschutz?
You'll also note that Spooner says "I stood there about five minutes before a constable came", and this was after making his way through the crowd, and examining the deceased. He also says: "As I was going to Berner-street I did not meet any one except Mr. Harris, who came out of his house in Tiger Bay (Brunswick-street)."
How many minutes does all that total? It's more that 4.



That 10 minutes is a mental estimate, just as Spooner's 12:35 arrival time is an mental estimate.
Lamb may have also mistaken Blackwell's arrival time with Ed Johnston's. EJ said this at the inquest:

As soon as Dr. Blackwell came he looked at his watch. It was then 1:16. I was there three or four minutes before Dr. Blackwell.

So Johnston is aware of Blackwell checking his watch, meaning that this is after Blackwell arrives at the closed gates.
Most likely the 1:16 time is a reference to when Blackwell starts dictating notes to Johnston, and '1:16' is recorded in those notes. That is why Johnston remembers Blackwell looking at his watch - the time was written down.



Commercial Road is a main road - Grove Street isn't.
Commercial Road is a 30 second jog from #40 Berner street, at most.
Police were eventually found ... on Commercial Road.

If Lamb's 10 minute estimate is so accurate, then what to make of this?...

PC Smith : It takes me from 25 minutes to half an hour to go round my beat. I was last in Berner-street about half-past 12 or 12:35. At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round. I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. I did not hear any cries of "Police." When I got there I saw constables 12 H R and 252 H. I then saw the deceased, and, on looking at her, found she was dead. I then went to the station for the ambulance. Dr. Blackwell's assistant came just as I was going away.

Smith could see the crowd gathered outside the gates of #40, from Commercial Rd, at 1am.
When he arrives, Lamb and Collins are already there.
He then walks to club at normal beat pace, arriving about 1:02.
A few minutes later he heads off for an ambulance, just as Ed Johnston arrives.

I've already said before Diemschutz arrival would've been about 1am.

Diemschutz says he met a man when he went to call for the police and ended his search when he reached Grove Street. That man returned with him to Dutfield's Yard. Spooner says he went to Dutfield's Yard with two men after seeing them calling for police but stopping at Grove Street. Morris Eagle says Deimschutz went towards Faircough Street with a club member to call for the police as he went the other way towards Commercial Road. Diemschutz and Spooner returned to Dutfield's Yard before the constable Eagle found in Commercial Road arrived. According to Diemschutz the man who came back with him touched Elizabeth Stride's head when he looked at the body on arrival. According to Spooner he touched Elizabeth Stride's chin when he looked at the body on arrival.

Spooner is the man Diemschutz met when he went to call for the police down Fairclough Street and returned with him to Dutfield's Yard.
Diemschutz is one of the men Spooner saw calling for police in Fairclough Street and returned to Dutfield's Yard with.

A policeman would regularly be seen at the Fairclough Street end of Berner Street, that would be part of PC Smith's beat. Logical then to go that way when looking for a policeman as its the nearer beat than Commercial Road.

Johnson says he arrived 3 to 4 minutes before Dr Blackwell who arrived at 1:16am, so PC Smith leaves the scene to get an ambulance at about 1:12am. PC Lamb dispatched the constable he arrived with - 426 H - soon after to get Dr Blackwell. Your quote says PC Smith saw the constable 12 H R with PC Lamb. That's a different PC, so after the other constable had left the scene to get a doctor. This means PC Smith arrived any time between 1am and 1:10am. It changes nothing in terms of the the main timeline.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

To the point....there is no substantiated story that suggests anyone was on the street near the club from 12:35-40 until 12:55..when Leon strolls past, looking into the passageway. Fanny Mortimer, who almost certainly has a clock in her home, states she was outside viewing the street "nearly the whole time" between 12:30 and 1am, and that she stayed at her door continuously for the last 10 minutes of the half hour. She went in at 1. Had Louis been arriving "precisely" at 1 as he claimed, she would not have been able to miss seeing and hearing him. Perhaps he just chose his words poorly?

Or perhaps Fanny just missed seeing the pony and cart arrive, by seconds...

Walter Dew: After the main meeting at the clubhouse had broken up some thirty or forty members who formed the choir, remained behind to sing. Mrs. Mortimer, as she had done on many previous occasions, came out to her gate the better to hear them. For ten minutes she remained there, seeing and hearing nothing which made her at all suspicious.

Just as she was about to re-enter her cottage the woman heard the approach of a pony and cart. She knew this would be Lewis Dienschitz, the steward of the club. He went every Saturday to the market, returning about this hour of the early morning.

You say Fanny most likely has a clock in her home.
That seems reasonable enough, but was she actually cognizant of the clock time, in the half hour leading up to 1am, Sep 30th?
She's outside for most of that time, apparently.
The remainder might have be spent checking on husband and children.
Does she need to know the time, like PCs Lamb and Smith do? I don't think so.
Later that day, Fanny is telling the press that the deceased was found to have grapes in her hand, but doesn't say she saw them herself.
So where does she get that information from?
The answer is; from the same person who gives her the idea that she was outside until 1am - her neighbour Louis Diemschitz.