The International Working Mens Association/Wiiliam Wess

[Archaic]

Oh, my God, not the cachous again...

Well, those are good questions Mike.

I usually expect some slight discrepancies in witness testimony, especially when the event being recalled is a "crisis", like a terrible accident or a murder.

At the end of your posts, where you offer the quote about Diemschutz seeing grapes in one of Liz's hands and a paper-packet of sweetmeats in the other, I wonder if it's possible that Liz actually had a few loose cachous in that hand which he mistook for grapes in the dark?

We know the packet of cachous was open and some were found spilled on the ground.

Just an idea; that was simply the first possibly that sprang to mind.

Best regards, Archaic

[Archaic]

*1891 Book: 'The Anarchists' - Author Visited Berner St. Club In 1887-1888

I just found a really cool book called
"The Anarchists: A Picture Of Civilization At The Close Of The Nineteenth Century".
It was written in 1891 by John Henry Mackay.

What's really interesting is that Mackay compiled his material for this book in 1887 & 1888,
and he was in London- not only that, he attended meetings at the Berner St. Club and wrote about it in detail!

I haven't had a chance to read it yet, have a bunch of Christmas stuff to do so could only skim it for now, but decided to post it right away in case any of you want to read it during your holiday.

You can read online or download.

http://www.archive.org/details/anarchistspicture00mackiala

Enjoy and Merry Christmas!
Archaic

[perrymason]

Oh, my God, not the cachous again...

Well, those are good questions Mike.

I usually expect some slight discrepancies in witness testimony, especially when the event being recalled is a "crisis", like a terrible accident or a murder.

At the end of your posts, where you offer the quote about Diemschutz seeing grapes in one of Liz's hands and a paper-packet of sweetmeats in the other, I wonder if it's possible that Liz actually had a few loose cachous in that hand which he mistook for grapes in the dark?

We know the packet of cachous was open and some were found spilled on the ground.

Just an idea; that was simply the first possibly that sprang to mind.

Best regards, Archaic

I think because they felt they could differentiate between the two items Arch that its not as probable that more than one witness would make the same error.

I realize this is more Liz Stride's murder oriented than the thread premise, perhaps well see if we should open up some dialogue there on this issue.

What troubles me is that If I were to imagine myself being questioned about something I did or saw, where I was at at the time in question and who I was with would be the basic framework I would imagine of the recollections I would provide. The simple answers....where were you, were you alone.....then would come....what did you see, or what did you do.

Isaac says in that statement that Louis called him into the yard at 12:40am....suggesting Louis is already in the yard with the dead woman and has not run in as yet to look for his wife or call some members for help....as both Eagle and Isaac are said to have responded when Louis says he entered at 1am.....Isaac also says that he was asked to go for help by Louis, not that he and Louis went out together, and he doesnt mention Spooner at all.

Spooner does mention 2 men......(but Isaac said he was alone....did Diemshitz then go with someone else?)...and he says near to 12:35-40 is when he enters the yard. That is declared to be an error on his part by most who heard it or read it. Because of course, Louis isnt even there until 1am..right?

Lets say for the sake of interest that a 5 minute error allowance of time is extended to each witness...but that no time can be before 12:35am when PC Smith sees Liz.....as far as Im concerned, he is the last trustworthy sighting.

Even with error allowances none of the above adds up to what Diemshutz himself says....the Club Steward.

Eagle says he comes into the yard at 12:40.....Lave says he went as far as to look out to the street from the gates between 12:30 and 12:40.....Isaac says Louis called him into the yard at 12:40.........If Spooner actually was off by 5 minutes too early then he is coming into the yard perhaps at 12:45ish...about how long it would take for the 2 men from the Club to have gone looking for a policeman and then return with Spooner.

Why doesnt any of this seem to start at 1am?
And how come people dont seem to know if they were alone or not, or who was with them?
How come Isaac K and Morris E and Joseph L and Louis D dont see each other at 12:40 by the gates?

Best regards Arch....and a Very Merry HoHo to you and yours.

[Archaic]

John Henry Mackay

Hi, Mike.

Here's a photo of the author of 'The Anarchists', John Henry Mackay.

Gotta run-

Cheers, Archaic

[Phil Carter]

Well...after a break for a day or two at Xmas, I have been searching a bit.

At least two senior policemen were dire enemies of the Irish cause:Sir Robert Anderson and Sir Melville Macnaghten.
Sir Robert had been the Home Office top man on Fenians and the thwarting of Home Rule and had nominal charge of the Ripper investigation from October 6th 1888. I believe I'm right in saying that according to Martin Fido, Macnaghten was apparently an Orangeman and descended from one of the original Prentice boys of Derry.
James Monro was seemingly committed to anti-Fenian activities as Head of the Secret Irish Department.
Supt.Charles Cutbush was reported in his orbituary to have harboured paranoid delusions about Catholics trying to poison his water supply.

These are just a few of the senior policemen. There are others, such as Sir Charles Warren were committed Freemasons who, historically speaking, have been linked with the Orange Lodges.
As regards senior politicians, Lord Randolph Churchill and Lord Salisbury were fierce supporters of Unionism and the Orange men.

Then a connection to the Whitechapel murders themselves. Macnaghten"s reported belief that the Ripper was a leader of a plot to assassinate Mr Balfour at the Irish office. Now, Balfour is supposed to be the originator of the Irish "shoot to kill" policy. I read somewhere that this was confirmed in a telegram sent by the Divisional Magistrate for Cork, which read..
"Deal very summarily with any organised resistance to lawful authority.If necessary do not hesitate to shoot".

In this context James Monro's following comments in his personal memoirs makes me really wonder...
"The Fenians.....resolved to inaugerate a system of asssassination of eminent persons, Mr Balfour ,especially to be carried out by Irish men NOT Irish Americans. The agent chosen was apparently JS Walsh, a resident of Brooklyn and a well known ruffian who had been concerned with the Phoenix Park murder."

Finally, James Monro regarded, "The whole affair of the Whitechapel murders of 1888 as a very[political] hot potato", a remark that has led to speculation about whether the Ripper was part of a plot to discredit and distract the British Police and politicians.
If, and I say IF this were to be so, then I believe we may need to look as well,at whether the victims themselves had in anyway crossed the line of things. Were there, infact, women "on the ground" working as informers for Anderson and Co?
Was Elizabeth Stride outside the IWEA as an "informer" (please note...the IWEA were sympathisers with the Fenian cause way before Michael Davitt became associated with Berner Street"s political activities in, I believe, 1891). Catherine Eddowes...Was she too perhaps an informer? MJK?

The Irish connections with these last two women, are strong in the least.
Stride, by dint of her actually being in and around 40 Berner St, and it's antecedandants, make the whole thing very strange indeed.

The fact that we can't find Kelly, or who she ACTUALLY was, either before or afterwards in any family connection, puts a very heavy emphasis, for me, on one thing. She may well NOT have been "Mary Kelly" at all.

It is my suspicion that the answer lies within the Secret Dept Files. For in there, the Fenian sympathisers and undercover men and women's names would be printed.

And the most frightening thing about all of this is the fact that the whole thing could very well be not a cover up as such, but the fact that Anderson USED people to infiltrate and report back from inside street Fenianism. And with so many women sacrificed in an effort to get answers, no wonder no one wanted the whole thing to come out. The egg on the face thing would be NOTHING to the reaction of the masses at this little gem of a plan. After all, the Kelly crime was SO bad. Anderson MUST have pulled the plug on the whole idea of infiltrating the Fenians with women. I believe THAT is why Warren resigned. Because he KNEW what was going on, and had if not sanctioned it, went along with it.

This isn't a wild, far-fetched idea. It is very, very plausible. With Anderson in charge of BOTH the Ripper hunt AND the anti-Fenian brigade... it all makes if not perfect sense, but gives a very, I put forward, plausible explanation.

Those files are closed because of National Security. It has sod all to do with descendants... unless those descendants ARE descendants of the victims USED by Anderson and his quasi-religious lunatic idealisms to deal with Fenians.

best wishes and hopes for a continuous and joyous festive season to all.

Phil

[Simon Wood]

Hi Phil,

Nice one.

It sure beats the pants off Druitt, Kosminski and Ostrog.

I'll post a little something after I've found where I so safely put it.

Regards,

Simon

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil,

Nice one.

It sure beats the pants off Druitt, Kosminski and Ostrog.

I'll post a little something after I've found where I so safely put it.

Regards,

Simon

Hello Simon,

Thanks, I look forward to it.

best wishes

Phil

[Simon Wood]

Hi Phil,

The following paragraph is from The Rise of Scotland Yard, A History of the Metropolitan Police, by Douglas G. Browne, Pub. Harrap, London 1956—

"His [JtR's] identity is unknown to this hour, though definite claims to the contrary have been made, and numberless theories propounded. Sir Robert Anderson, who succeeded Monro as Assistant Commissioner, C.I.D., just after the second Whitechapel murder, says that the murderer was a low-class Polish Jew. According to Sir Basil Thomson, 'in the belief of the police he was a man who committed suicide in the Thames at the end of 1888,' and who 'had probably been at some time a medical student.' A third head of the C.I.D., Sir Melville Macnaghten, appears to identify the Ripper with the leader of a plot to assassinate Mr Balfour at the Irish Office."

It's difficult to know when exactly these quotes were harvested, as "just after the second Whitechapel murder" Anderson was in Switzerland and didn't identify his suspect as such until 1895, Thomson didn't join the CID until June 1913 and in 1894 Sir Melville Macnaghten was placing each-way bets on Druitt, Kosminski and Ostrog.

But in November 1887, nineteen months before MM joined the Metropolitan Police, there apparently had been a plot to assassinate Balfour.

According to the Flesherton Ontario Advance, October ? 1887—



Regards,

Simon

[perrymason]

Stewart and Phil, nice posts both. I think Simon that guys like Phil and myself are finding is that if you can believe that the authorities of London were concerned with the possibilities of revolution and anarchy being dumped in their lap due to their magnetic attraction for such folks from around the globe and the desperative lives they were leading in the greatest city in the world at the time...you will feel many of the remarks like you and Phil posted should be taken quite seriously.

As far as I am concerned a crazed murderer within a radical socialist or political independence movement is a lot easier to believe in than a despondent suicidal barrister who was fired from his job, a Russian thief who was actually in jail in Europe pending a hearing while the ripper crimes were being committed or a schizophrenic local Polish Jew. Or for that matter, a man who sits and patiently and watches his months long murders take place in the daylight hours.

There is something particularly vicious that can happen when people are fighting with one another over religious or nationalist identities or ideals, and I see the East End of London in 88 an Occupation Zone for those kinds of struggles.

I dont know that I could imagine that all the Whitechapel Murders had some socio-political slant to them....or even that all 5 of the Canonicals did....but I can imagine people in that place at that time seeing the murderer as a lemon they could make lemonade from.

Best regards gents.

[Tom_Wescott]

Balfour

Hi all,

I would like to see more research done into the Balfour lead. Personally, I wonder if this was not Macnaghten's actual preferred theory. I believe the memoranda was nothing more than propaganda. I'm in complete agreement with first half of Simon Wood's essay in Rip #109. I don't agree with the 2nd half (I think Anderson was the victim of poor journalism in that exampe).
Unfortunately, there were many plots against Balfour that got thwarted, so knowing which one to look at might be difficult.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

Irish connection

Hello Tom.

"I would like to see more research done into the Balfour lead."

I'm with you, old chap. And I daresay it shall be. This may be a fruitful area for research.

The best.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Regarding Charles Le Grand and Parnellism, he claimed to have personally 'trailed' Piggott and Labouchere, but that sure as heck isn't something I'd hang my hat on until it was confirmed by a more reliable source. And compared to Le Grand, even Albert Bachert's a more reliable source!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

Herewith an except from the Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume XXXIV, Issue 11116, 7 January 1899. It gives a very interesting account of the Secret Dept.

The Emergence Of The Special Irish Branch
HOW DETECTIVES ARE TRAINED.

In the course of an article on the training of detectives at Scotland Yard, the "Daily Telegraph"says: - Every detective begins his career at the lowest rung of the police ladder. When seeking employment in the London force, the young man from the country is promptly directed to Scotland Yard, where the work of winnowing the grain is begun. Physical fitness is an important qualification, and the candidate must be prepared to pass a very stiff medical examination. This may be one of the facts accounting for the large number of provincials who are accepted. After the doctor comes a test of the man's educational attainments. The clumsy criminal is fast becoming extinct, and, acting upon the principle of "diamond cut diamond," Scotland Yard must have men able to deal with skilled "professionals," whose weapons are the chloroform-pad, electric drills, and other resources of science unknown to the Bill Sykes of earlier generation. It is for this reason that the standard of education is being gradually increased. Having been proved sound in mind and body, the candidates are sent to Wellington Barracks, where they are drilled every day for three weeks, or for such longer period as may be deemed necessary. This course finished, the novice is attached to one of the police divisions of the Metropolis, and another stage of training begins. His first duty is to attend the police courts daily, the object being to teach him the details of procedure, the manner of giving evidence, and the best way of conducting a case. The young constable is next entrusted to the care of an experienced officer, who pilots him round the various streets or the division, shows him the chief resorts of crime, and generally furnishes him with a fund of useful "tips." After a few days of this class of work, he is supplied with uniform and truncheon. The days of apprenticeship are ended, and he goes forth to take a place amongst the rank and file of the Metropolitan police.
There are three grades of uniformed constables, and it is the ambition of most men in these to enter the detective force, promotion to which is accompanied by higher salary and improved social position. Even to the third-class policemen the chance of proving his quality soon comes, and, in many cases, advancement to the first class is very rapid. It is from the latter section that our detectives are chiefly recruited, and no man is accepted until he has succeeded in satisfying the divisional chief that he has some natural faculty for the investigation of crime. When Sir Howard Vincent was in authority at Scotland Yard, he tried the experiment of appointing men to the detective service who had not been trained as constables. This step proved a complete failure, and very soon after their nomination most of the new men found it desirable to resign. It may be imagined by people in the habit of reading detective novels of the Sherlock Holmes type that the arrest of criminals may be brought about by methods which have no place at the present time in our system; but the hard, practical experience of Scotland Yard does not favor a departure from the plan now pursued. The theorists have been obliged to yield to men like Melville, Littlejohn, Swanson, Greenham, Hagen, Von Tornow, and Jarvis, all of whom belong to the essentially practical school. These officers held as an axiom that a fairly good "police clue" in the hands of the average detective trained in the London force was worth more than the teaching of all the psychologists in Europe. Intelligent, practical, experienced men are demanded by Scotland Yard, but hypnotists, mesmerists, and mind-readers receive no encouragement. The pay of a first-class detective constable does not average £2 a week, but if success attends him he will be promoted to sergeant, when his salary, starting at £2 2s per week, may advance by yearly stages until he receives as much as £3 1s 6d.
Scotland Yard may be described as the great "clearing house" for the United Kingdom and the colonies as regards crime, and the most interesting feature of Scotland Yard is the Secret Service or Political Department, of which Mr. Melville, most able and conscientious officer, is the chief. While the ordinary Yard officer is dealing with such matters as the arrest of refugee criminals, extradition proceedings, or the unravelling of some murder mystery, his comrade of the Political Department is transacting affairs of still greater State importance. The safeguarding of Royalty and of Cabinet Ministers, the arrest of anarchists and revolutionists, and the investigation of charges of treason fall to the lot of some 40 picked men acting under Mr. Melville's direction. They are in daily communication with the Police Department of every foreign Government, and certain members are frequently despatched on secret missions abroad. This special department was formed in 1883, at the time of the dynamite outrages, and remained for some years under Chief Inspector Littlechild as a temporary establishment. Finally, the Home Office being convinced of enormous importance of the work which had been performed by the new service, resolved that it should be established on a permanent basis. Representatives are stationed at the chief ports not only in the United Kingdom, but on the Continent. Most of the men belonging to this department are of superior education, and have been selected on account of the special aptitude they have displayed in the capture of law-breakers. It enjoys the pleasant reputation of being the only police department where a liberal allowance for expenses is made. When a man accepts duty as a temporary detective, he is only allowed 2s 6d per week in addition to his wages as a constable, but the favored member of the "Special Service" enjoys practically a free hand.

Source: Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume XXXIV, Issue 11116, 7 January 1899, Page 5

Note: The "Special Service" referred to above is more popularly known as the "Special Irish Branch."


This may be of some interest. My apologies if this article has been reproduced before.

best wishes

Phil

[perrymason]

Nice post Phil, some interesting data in there.

It would seem that its feasible and in fact reasonable to suggest that the socio-political climate at the time of these killings almost ensured that at some point throughout that Fall we would have investigations into the Ripper crimes on many fronts including National Security. Macnaghtens remarks on his feelings that Fenian parties conducting the plot to assassinate Balfour were perhaps responsible for the crimes in a way confirms the suspicion.

Organizations like the above in the thread title are one step away from armed conflict with the local police as it was, with this terror campaign going on, everything was moving faster. Radicals would be seeking disruptive opportunities in many forms, maybe they found a doozy of a distraction to tap into.

My curiosity extends as far as being interested in whether there is any data that suggests these Socialists or splinters of them were co-cooperatively with other "movements", perhaps some better financed and organized.

My best regards all.

[lynn cates]

cooperating socialists

Hello Mike. I notice that, in Begg's "Definitive History . . ." there was quite a bit of cooperation amongst the various radical groups.

Food for thought.

The best.
LC