Murder locations

[perrymason]

Thanks Philip, sorry about my "Lane" and "Passage" confusion. Im pleased the vantage point still exists, although I recall there was a loading dock and some stairs that might have impeded his view, and he was only responsible for a quick glance between Watkins passes anyway.

I believe the killer was there though...or only just in the process of leaving,....the fact that Harvey doesnt hear the echoed sound of fabric ripping/cutting as he makes his glance seems to indicate, if he was there, the killer had ripped/cut the cloth already. Cause Watkins would have heard it after that.

Best regards all.

[George Hutchinson]

Hi Michael. I agree it's possible that JTR was in the corner, looking and waiting and fully expecting to be seen. Maybe if Harvey hadn't been under a lamp himself he might have been able to see him? We'll never know.

I don't know about this staircase business. The warehouse of Horner & Co ran down the west side of the square towards the corner and whilst there would have been loading doors in the building, I've never seen stairs on any photo or plan.

Robert - Spaghettification was banned in 1882 and if there had been just the slightest trace of pastaism from Watkins, he would have been dismissed.

PHILIP

[Monty]

Philip, Robert,

Look, if you arent going to take this seriously....

Philip,

I don't know about this staircase business. The warehouse of Horner & Co ran down the west side of the square towards the corner and whilst there would have been loading doors in the building, I've never seen stairs on any photo or plan.

The loading bay doors were situated between where Harvey would have stood (if indeed he had stood there) and Heydemanns Yard, as you have stated.

Below is Whiffins 1925 shot which show the detatchable loading bay steps (Ive circled them in yellow). You may note another set is laying propped against the Warehouse wall.



Im trying to recall the plan in which there was a possible metal staircase, I shall get back to you on that one.

[perrymason]

It was the recollection of that shot that prompted my comments earlier Monty....and I kept having an image of a ladder come to mind, which a plank with horizontal "steps" nailed into is reminiscent of.

I think this situation would rely on the available lighting, not the detachable steps prohibiting a view. And the closest light was near the opposite end of the Square, correct?

One wonders about Pearce. Cloth ripping would make some noise in that empty square.

For me the most troubling part of this DE night is the amount of police both active and non in and around this crime scene. Watkins, Harvey, the night watchman, Pearce, Marriot, Halse and Long,....the way this looks on paper its almost like cued entries and exits.

Best regards Monty

[John Bennett]

One wonders about Pearce. Cloth ripping would make some noise in that empty square.

Didn't William Stewart tear a piece of calico in the square to see how loud it was?

But I believe the apron piece was cut off rather than torn.

[halomanuk]

Cloth is not easy to tear necessarily and with the time-scale involved it would make sense that it was cut with the same knife used.

[Robert]

Michael, I don't really see how Pearce was involved. Clapp slept right through the whole thing, and thanks to Chris Scott we know that he was a young man.

If there was a fly in the ointment, I think it might have been Harvey. Maybe he didn't go to the end of the passage, or maybe at some point he saw something or someone. My main reason for worrying about Harvey is that he was sacked the following year, and we don't know why.

Monty, I might be misremembering this, but I think you told me that even if Harvey had seen someone hanging around in the Square, it wouldn't have been any of his business unless a crime was being committed. So perhaps Harvey simply peered up the passage and then continued on his beat?

[Sam Flynn]

This is turning into a very specific Eddowes discussion, don't you think?

[perrymason]

This is turning into a very specific Eddowes discussion, don't you think?

I suppose your right Sam,....so, does anyone know whose name appears on the property deed for Dutfields Yard at the time of the murders? Is it part of the International Club, or was the yard and the cottages under a different name at that time? Was the Arbeter Fraint a property management firm as well?

Any help is appreciated.

Best regards.

[iris84]

Richard, its certainly interesting to hear your recollections. it's strange to think that four of these places, which have become so famous, no longer stand.

I'm the kind of person who gets very sentimental about this kind of thing. I'd love to be able to tour the area, and maybe will get the chance one day. Granted, I don't live as far away as some people here do.

I was wondering, of those who have taken the Ripper walks, which ones did you take, and did you find the guide to be factual, or impeded by personal opinion?

[George Hutchinson]

Iris, any guide who tries to push a suspect should be pushed themselves - off Tower Bridge. Plenty of them do, though. I hear one or two go on about anagrams and the like. God help us.

Regarding the steps used in Mitre Square, Michael and Monty - these surely wouldn't have been there in that position at night? The steps were just there for loading and unloading (in progress as evidenced by the horse and cart in the 1925 Whiffin?) and would not have impeded a night-time view. Sorry, I was thinking you were talking about permanent STAIRS.

Oh, and Monty, analysis of the Victorian laws governing Italian foodstuffs is no laughing matter.

PHILIP

[Monty]

Philip,

Im not going to argue with you on the steps point, mainly cos Im in agreement. I will say nothing is for certain.

Besides, I feel the light issues alone would have been enought for Harvey to have missed the killer and body.

With regards permanent steps. Im currently trawling through my mails at the moment. If I remember right Jakey came across some info (could have been a map) regarding such steps. At the time he wasnt certain but I think the info was circa 1900-12. Again, working from memory here (and God knows I may be confusing with another event, so please dont quote me on this) we questioned why Foster didnt include these steps if they were there and why they never showed up in the Whiffin shots. Basically they werent the in 88, then they were, then they had gone again around the 1920s. This simply didnt add up and the only logical conclusion was that the info was incorrect.

However, our point was that there would have been other 'street furniture' around that may have impeded Harvey. In you own Whitby collection there are bins shown in the photos of Mitre Square, and there is also the Burke case a month prior to Eddowes murder which indicates debris in and around the area.

It wasnt a clean as Foster showed it to be.

Robert,

Harvey had a duty to his beat. However, if he saw someone skulking in the corner then he had every right, nay a duty, to inspect. If he saw him Im sure he would have questioned him.

Gareth,

Apologies for discussing locations on a location thread.

Seriously, I see your point.

Monty

[Nurse Sarah]

Im doing a tour this sunday evening...cannot wait, Im going to be 'Hutchinson-ised'

[perrymason]

Sorry Sam, just want to address a few points being made quickly,....I agree with you Philip that a plank with some horizontal footholds....which is probably what it was, wouldnt be there at night. On the apron section, ....it was in fact both torn and cut,...so the ripping portion of the noise would be a factor for at least the Square itself...and possibly a consideration when reviewing the statements of Harvey, Watkins the Night Watchman and even Pearce...his bedroom window looked out onto the murder site.

Its stated that Pearce had a family, and that they were there that night, yet nothing more about them if they were interviewed as well, which I imagine would happen. I believe Pearce may bear scrutiny....he is also one of Abberline's Special Posse including Reid and others.

Ok, thats it Sam.

Has anyone researched the name on the deed of Dutfields Yard, or both that and the Club and cottages? My suspicion is that the International Club is not the name on the deed or lease for the yard if its separate.

Best regards all.

[perrymason]

Im doing a tour this sunday evening...cannot wait, Im going to be 'Hutchinson-ised'

Hi Sarah,

I believe its extra to get "Hutchinson-ized", and I doubt that would be done in groups.....

Please let us know how you liked it, Philip's a big guy and can take the public compliments.

Have a great time, Im envious, Best regards