Toffs in Spitalfields

[Natalie Severn]

Ben,
I object to you suggesting Sir Christopher Frayling is a liar I really do.What evidence do you have that he was even remotely "lying"?The man stated that in the 19th century it is documented historical FACT that Wilton"s was used by upper class and other wealthy men as a brothel.What "evidence" do you possess that that is not true?
Please----lets keep the REAL flag flying here.Thats how you will get to the truth .
And dont twist my words eh!

[Natalie Severn]

Ben,
Forget Booth.He had an axe to grind and was a bit of a sally annie type like the general ----very ,very ,obsessive,full of rectitude! Wonderful maps but that axe he had in his right hand got very slightly in the way of clear thinking!

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,
I know you are referring to 14 Fournier St . That group of silk weavers houses were extremely grand, built in 1726 by Wood & Mitchell on 98 year leases.But 14 Fournier St lately called Howard House was turned into a school in 1840 and in 1881 was taken by T.H.W Pelham, A.F Kinnard and George Hanbury as a Home for working boys and renamed Howard House,
So at the time of the ripper murders it was a boys home, which probably meant the interiors were left intact.
In the 20th century Fournier St was restored, the original silk hangings and victoria's dress were probably in the V&A as they have a fabulous collection if Spitalfields silk and placed back in the house. Victoria's coronation dress was made of Spitalfields silk in the house. as she was trying to encourage the dying industry.
As I said in my previous post, by the 1880s the whole area was run down.
I mentioned Dennis Severs house 18 Folgate St because its a great place to visit.
So Dowson was into little girls, not Beardsley. I am not impressed by Frayling's assertions.love Miss Marple

I wonder whether it was this house Miss Marple.
The owner,who showed me round,was "at pains" to point out how it had "never" been altered in any way.It has never had electricity for example.The wall tapestries had never been removed.The gilt chandeliers neither.But hey! ----maybe it was a Boys home in 1888 and the owner,like Sir Christopher Frayling,didnt really know what he was talking about!
Next door is the even grander house ,much more palatial again ,that belonged to Nicholas Hawksmoor,the architect of Christchurch.The deed"s of these grand houses will be somewhere ofcourse.But when I get back to London I will definitely post my pics.of the lovely interiors.

Returning to the "Decadent" Aubrey Beardsley.He didnt die until 1896 and contracted TB not long before his death.Sadly ,Miss Marple ,he was indeed one of the same flock of birds [the same feather included] as Ernest Dowson.
In 1885,the popularity of child prostitutes and the incipient market in young virgins by large numbers of "toffs" had been exposed on the front pages of Pall Mall Gazette by its editor WT Stead.
Sickert appears to have taken up Stead"s "exposure" ,in that several of his paintings of music halls appear to be pointing out the sinister "top hatted toff" sitting at the very front where the little girls are singing -the dirty old man syndrome-each of them looking very debauched and sinister-see the "Little Dot" paintings of Sickert 1888/9.
Marie Lloyd was "associated "with the East End ,though,yes,ofcourse, she performed all over the show.I believe I am correct here when I say she was born in Shoreditch next to Spitalfields.
However,of interest here may be the fact that she was a great friend of John McCarthy and his family and met them regurarly for a drink in The Sugar loaf in Hanbury Street.It is believed she was responsible for the McCarthy children getting onto the Stage.One of her famous songs was "The Boy I love is up in the Gallery"----meaning he was only a poor boy and not able to afford a seat at the front where all toffs were seated ogling the girls.

[Ben]

Can I state first of all that the boundary between the wealth of the City was just a 3 minute walk from Dorset Street---or if you prefer,take the parallel street to what was Dorset Street still named White"s Row,still containing a few 18th century buildings

It doesn't matter what Dorset Street was near to, Norma.

It was in one of the worst crime and poverty "hotspots" in the entirety of Greater London, let alone the East End, and moreover, it was very well known as such. A sure deterrent for any member of the paper-reading classes not to venture there dressed like a swaggering ostentatious peacock, especially when it was also very well known that a serial killer was active in that district, and that conspicuous out-of-towners were getting unwelcomed "attention" from the suspicious local denizens.

You state such absurdities sometimes Ben,you really do .

Bullcrap, that's what you do most of the time, entrenched as you are in your mission to pin the mantle of guilt on an interesting glamorous ripper, rather than the generic local nobody. I realise that a lot of people are anxious to uphold the iconic image of Gentleman Jack, but the arguments used to justify that "upholding" really are nonsensical, and accusing me of "absurdities" is the best way possible to introduce anger and vitriol into the thread.

Professor Clive Bloom, a very highly regarded crime historian , agreed with him on the general point he was making about the use made by the upper class male of Whitechapel"s prostitutes and this is in direct contradiction to what you and Ben are trying to say

Odd that you didn't mention this before. It's as though you've given up on the last expert you were using because his errors were exposed and now you've suddenly introduced the "spectre" of Clive Bloom. Rather than just naming experts who may or may not have imparted what you've claimed, it's far better to provide evidence that they demonstrated the worth of their insights. It's no good reminding us how "emphatic" or "insistent" someone is - not much good if that insistence was based on demonstrable errors and "facts" that couldn't possibly be true. At least Booth's research efforts are in evidence today.

Forget Booth

NO!

We listen to Booth because he knows better than we do, and if Booth's evidence is at odds with your opinions, it's your opinions that need changing, not those of Boot. If Booth's meticulous research informed him that Fournier Street was populated, in the main, by the "fairly comfortable", then we're obliged to take him seriously, rather than chucking out anything that interferes with the irritating shepherding of RipperToff.

Ben

[Natalie Severn]

Sam,
While I appreciate your point-that Sir Christopher Frayling may have mentioned Wilton"s in the context of a dozen or so years before the murders ,incidently he may actually have given the correct dates for this - I dont recall it-but possibly he wanted to illustrate these "documented" goings on at Wiltons as being evidence of the ways in which upper and upper middle class males in general used Whitechapel in the late nineteeenth century.This was clearly his main point.Not Wilton"s per se-but Wilton"s because there was here a specific record of their regular East End jaunts.
Professor Clive Bloom, a very highly regarded crime historian , agreed with him on the general point he was making about the use made by the upper class male of Whitechapel"s prostitutes and this is in direct contradiction to what you and Ben are trying to say.

Lets not forget that the title of the entire exhibition referred to "The East End" of Jack the Ripper -not just the murders themselveses.
So if this is what was being explored at the lecture, then I have no reason to doubt the research.Incidently-Sir Christopher Frayling produced the cult Film,-Shadow of the Ripper,for the BBC and we were shown it.It was brilliantly made with evident care regarding research.

[Sam Flynn]

The lecture was chaired by Professor Clive Bloom,a Crime historian and well known author

They're not infallible, Nats. As I said a while back, even Prof Bill Fishman has been known to drop a few clangers in his accounts of the Whitechapel Murders. Being a professor or an historian doesn't automatically mean that a person can be an expert on all aspects of history, anymore than a qualification in medicine automatically confers on a GP the knowledge of a "specialist".

Now if you yourself believe you are more qualified than Sir Christpher Frayling on this matter ,why not take it up with the educational establishment who paid him for his lecture,viz The Museum of London

Looking up any biography of Christopher Frayling on the Web ought to be enough to show that he does not specialise in the history of either music halls or prostitution in the East End. He is a very capable historian, and a brilliant writer, but that doesn't mean he's immune to the same old chestnuts that sometimes trip up even the most battle-hardened students of the Ripper case.

rather than myself who am simply reiterating what I heard from both Sir Christopher and Professor Clive Bloom that day?

Surely enough has been advanced in this thread - not least the embarrassing point made about Wilton's not operating as a music hall at the time - to give you cause to question at least a little of what you heard.

[miss marple]

14 fournier st

Hi Norma,
I know you are referring to 14 Fournier St . That group of silk weavers houses were extremely grand, built in 1726 by Wood & Mitchell on 98 year leases.But 14 Fournier St lately called Howard House was turned into a school in 1840 and in 1881 was taken by T.H.W Pelham, A.F Kinnard and George Hanbury as a Home for working boys and renamed Howard House,
So at the time of the ripper murders it was a boys home, which probably meant the interiors were left intact.
In the 20th century Fournier St was restored, the original silk hangings and victoria's dress were probably in the V&A as they have a fabulous collection if Spitalfields silk and placed back in the house. Victoria's coronation dress was made of Spitalfields silk in the house. as she was trying to encourage the dying industry.
As I said in my previous post, by the 1880s the whole area was run down.
I mentioned Dennis Severs house 18 Folgate St because its a great place to visit.
So Dowson was into little girls, not Beardsley. I am not impressed by Frayling's assertions.love Miss Marple

[John Bennett]

Hi John,
No idea but if I see you in Whitechapel in the New Year I will point it out to you.It is directly behind Christchurch itself -I have a photo of the rear of Christchurch from the garden which I will post when I get back to London together with pics of the beautiful silk wall tapestries - Hawksmoors old house is next door.
Best
Norma

Thanks Norma,

you may be talking about No.2 in that case.

[Natalie Severn]

Which number Fournier Street was the master-builder's house, Nats? I've no idea (to my shame).

Hi John,
No idea but if I see you in Whitechapel in the New Year I will point it out to you.It is directly behind Christchurch itself -I have a photo of the rear of Christchurch from the garden which I will post when I get back to London together with pics of the beautiful silk wall tapestries - Hawksmoors old house is next door.
Best
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Miss Marple,

I was not talking about the Silk Weavers Cottages in general,I was being quite specific about the detail I saw regarding certain houses in Fournier Street that I have actually seen the interiors of-and have photographs of --viz Hawksmoor"s quite palatial house and the Master Weavers palatial house next door to it.What you say about the silk weavers cottages in general is quite true and I too saw the splendid proramme Dan Cruikshank did some years ago now,but I was not talking about Hanbury Street or the other roads which contain Silk weaver cottages.
Nor was I writing about the house of Dennis Severs-which I have never been in- its quite away from Fournier Street which is far more important to this case as it has the Ten Bells and Christchurch at its Commercial Street end.
With regards to Aubrey Beardsley,again what you say about him is correct.In fact Sickert did a beautiful portrait of him not long before he died.He is walking in Hampstead Churchyard-looking away from the artist and looking very emaciated.
But Beardsley was one of a group of "Decadent" writers and poets caught up in the cult of child music hall performers. His friend the poet Ernest Dowson was particularly enamoured of a child of nine who he saw at the Bedford Music Hall, Camden Town in 1888 and asked her to "stay on" after the show so he could meet "The Singing Tarts"of which she was a part of the act, and be "privately entertained "by "Little Flossie"[in 1888].Its no wonder W.T.Stead raged about it all in the Pall Mall Gazette.I have lots of information on this group as Sickert was on the fringes of it to some extent and Aubrey Beardsley was certainly a part of this group of "Decadents".

Finally,I will repeat ----but for the last time because I have already discussed this a few days ago:
It was not me but Sir Christopher Frayling,at The Museum of London"s Dockland lectures on the back ground to the Jack the Ripper murders,who,in June 2008, when being quite specific about the clientele of the East End prostitutes,emphasised the way the upper and upper middle class men of that time---ie 1888,came to the East End for their illicit sex "in droves"---and formed a constant demand----he was emphatic and he was also suggesting that this was why the rumours had grown up around the toff as the ripper.The lecture was chaired by Professor Clive Bloom,a Crime historian and well known author,who took him up on this issue and "expanded" on its truth!
Now if you yourself believe you are more qualified than Sir Christpher Frayling on this matter ,why not take it up with the educational establishment who paid him for his lecture,viz The Museum of London ---rather than myself who am simply reiterating what I heard from both Sir Christopher and Professor Clive Bloom that day?

Thanks
Norma

[John Bennett]

Which number Fournier Street was the master-builder's house, Nats? I've no idea (to my shame).

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Ben,
Can I state first of all that the boundary between the wealth of the City was just a 3 minute walk from Dorset Street---or if you prefer,take the parallel street to what was Dorset Street still named White"s Row,still containing a few 18th century buildings,which is just three minutes walking distance from the city boundary stretching as it does from Aldgate where the City boundary ifrom Whitechapel is marked by the famous dragons up through Houndsditch Bevis Marks to Bishopsgate and beyond.
For heaven"s sake---one of the victims was murdered within the City boundary.


You state such absurdities sometimes Ben,you really do .Explain to me please how ,when I was invited to see the interior of the master builder"s C18th Silk Weaver house,every one of the six or seven precious antique silk wall hangings from the seventeen hundreds was still hanging there,as they had always been ,still totally intact?As was every gilt chandelier, a full dining suite with a huge table and eight chairs?If this house was part of a slum in 1888 them its a slum from another planet.The same exactly can be said about Hawsmoor"s beautiful house---nothing less than palatial,still.
I dont by the way,want to repeat all this.All I can say is go and check out these things for yourself.

Forget Booth---just go and check some of what I am saying out in the Guildhall [City of London stuff] Pevsner or any other reliable historical source such as .
Best Wishes

Norma

[miss marple]

weavers cottages

When the Hugoenot silk weavers houses were built, at the beginning of the 18th century, they were occupied by individuals who became wealthy through the domestic silk trade. By the beginning of the 19th century, this trade was all but dead, due to imports from India and China, Many silk weavers became bankrupt, over the course of the 19th century these houses deterioated, and became multi ccupantcy homes to the many immigrants coming into the east end. They became slums, unchanged over the years and were nearly demolished in the sixties, only to be saved by a group of people, like the architectural historian Dan Cruikshank, who realised their importance and bought and restored them. He also did a House Detective programme showing the history of one of these houses showing how they evolved from rich to poor. [ I have it on tape]
Dennis Severs created a piece of theatre in his house in Folgate St showing the history of these houses. 18 Folgate St is a piece of magic that should be visited by anyone interested in Spitalfields
Cleveland St is of course in the West End, the up market brothels [male and female ]were.
Marie Lloyd was a great star, who appeared in the great music halls all over London, including the Bedford, where Sickert painted some pictures. She was'nt stuck in the East End.
I just dont believe in this toffs crawling over the east end for sexual purposes. There is no evidence to back it up. The men who made use sexually of the ripper victims were ordinary working class men. The toff sexual scandals took place elsewhere.
Poor Aubrey Beardsley who died of TB age 26, was probably incapable of sex with anyone,he was ill for most of his short life, he was close to his sister Mabel, who was also a model for some of his images. His drawings shocked the establishment with their sexually explicitness, which were fuelled by his sexual fantasies, he was a great draughtsman and superb artist and any energy he had went into the creation of an extradinary body of work which would have use all his powers.
Miss Marple

[Ben]

You've always been a gentleman.

So have you, Jez!

Here's to more good-natured crossings of swords in 2009.

Best regards,
Ben

[Jez]

Always a ready answer! We've crossed swords a few times in the pre-crash days and no doubt we will again. You've always been a gentleman. Happy new year, Ben!
Jez.